Mad Mix Cocktail, dinoiii some thoughts plz

[B-natural]

Alrighty, I found this lil cocktail that Milos Sarcev believes adds pounds of mass to ANYbody, and was just curious what ppl thought, namely dinoiii.

Because according to directions it says to have this shake before, during, and after training. I'm assuming this means 3 shakes with the following ingredients:

3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g EAA's
15g BCAA's <---maybe you could sub in some protein here, not in article, jus curious
30-50g Vitargo
1 tsp Electrolyte drink powder
16-24oz Water

Alrighty, now I've seen some crazy things in life, and although this was in a bodybuilding magazine I figured it looks decent, and for the rest of us under 200lbs of SOLID muscle, we should choose the lower ends of the mix. But I was curious as to what dinoiii thought of this mad mix, I believe I have supplements that I could use for this, jus wondering what D thought on if it blocks any natural occuring processes during lifting. I know there was debate on glutamine's effects, and having a shake during the workout (workout length was the variable that made this permissable if it was over an hr.)

The claim is crazy, but if you are a first time creatine user, you may see great results. Ok ok, so the claim is that ANYONE can gain 10 pounds in a month by means of these shakes, which flood the bloodstram with these nutrients at the most critical times, creating the anabolic environment. He goes on to say that bber's with their special supplementation have gained 40lbs (and note the special cuz it is key)

Thoughts?

I figure, I have glutamine, clout,ICE, vitargo, and protein, so I could make this happen, at least a mix during and post workout, some of it pre-workout, but I do not agree with the vitargo pre-workout, and if I take it pre-workout there would be things I would choose to leave out either during or pwo.

[AsianSensation]

I have most of the ingredients besides the vitargo, if you decide to do this, let us know the results! If I become impatient, ill try it myself :D

[Trans_Isomer]

I would definitely not drink that pre-workout, you could get away with it peri-workout, around the 45min mark, but not before that. Insulin secretion from the amino acids and/or carbs would put you in a disadvantageous position. You don't want to be in an anabolic state going into your workout, you actually want to be catabolic to allow counter-regulatory hormone secretion.

This avoids two insulin effects that would hinder glucose metabolism during the exercise bout:

1) Stimulation of glycogen synthesis in muscle

2) Promotion of glucose uptake in other tissues where glucose is not needed during exercise.

You can also look at this thread for some more good info:

Pre-/Peri-/Post Workout Nutrition (Cortisol Control Respond)
http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396&highlight=cortisol+control+respond

[B-natural]

I was hopin you'd chime in, i didn't know if it was u or dinoiii with the thoughts on glutamine and supps pre-workout

[bLacKjAcK]

Hey BNat -- how many days away are ya now?

[dinoiii]

Because according to directions it says to have this shake before, during, and after training. I'm assuming this means 3 shakes with the following ingredients:

3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g EAA's
15g BCAA's <---maybe you could sub in some protein here, not in article, jus curious
30-50g Vitargo
1 tsp Electrolyte drink powder
16-24oz Water

Obviously trans is echoing many of the things I would say. If people haven't figured out the connection between us to date, you will shortly. Plus he did, in effect cite me in his response. But really a lot of the aforementioned suggestion really will center on:

[1] Definition of "pre" workout (I define definitively as 2-2.5 hours before of which I AM NOT A FAN OF CARBOHYDRATES). I know sugary drinks sell as a result of supplement funded research, but if body comp is in mind, general nutrition rules must not fall at the waste side, eh? For those that say - 2 hours before my workout will not allow me to have enough energy during the workout - my simple retort is that you are NOT eating enough over the course of the day. It is an additive effect. GI transit MUST be considered but only a very small fraction of the time is.

[2] BCAAs are EAAs - what a load of BS. When compared in many head-to-heads, the results gained from EAAs are nil when compared to BCAAs, so one must call into question whether or not the EAAs responsible for ANYTHING are NOT simply the BCAAs, you guys follow that correct (I know it likely comes out funny while typed, but in my head ... it translates fine). Now, you cannot simply stop there though -- NOW, the rationale of adding supplemental BCAAs to your regime centers on what your current goals are. If fat loss is it (eliminate them), if mass is it - one may ask would BCAA content (leucine ~ 37% of whey) be equivalent to results seen with simple protein supplementation ... that said, I think you are on to something with your thoughts there B-nat.

[3] In the Glutamine thread seen in the "Science" subforum, I have discussed glutamine supplementation at length and how to appropriately add it for any potential worth, you may start there for a decent response.

[4] Depends, I favor recomp diets versus pure "cuts" and "bulks" - that said, taking WMS in during the workout would prove potentially detrimental at ddepletion times, whereas during repletion...it would be great...trick: during repletion, you should theoretically NOT be working out for true effect and that said, you will likely not need it either Pre-Workout and/or Peri (During)-Workout. Of course, if you are a cutter and bulker (the one step forward, two step back approacher), then pertinency of this during a "mass" phase may trump all I have just said...after all - mass at all costs en route to 2 steps back doesn't really take a lot of control...I can gain a lot from eating a lot, but is this really recomp?

[5] Electrolyte (sodium, potassium, magnesium) = good, Water = good, Creatine = good (but still beta-alanine trumps creatine as far as efficacy these days while training in the gym!!!).



D_

[B-natural]

So a recomp is my goal? I want to add quality size soon, so I guess my goals would be a LBM gain, not sure how to word it. However, I was thinking to take 3 scoops Ice, 1 scoop VPX Protein, 50g vitargo after 45min into workout, I tend to travel into the 75-90min range (bein a trainer, i can't help but get q's or someone tryin to chit chat). I will check into the glutamine supplementation thread to make sure I see benefit from it

[dinoiii]

So a recomp is my goal? I want to add quality size soon, so I guess my goals would be a LBM gain, not sure how to word it. However, I was thinking to take 3 scoops Ice, 1 scoop VPX Protein, 50g vitargo after 45min into workout, I tend to travel into the 75-90min range (bein a trainer, i can't help but get q's or someone tryin to chit chat). I will check into the glutamine supplementation thread to make sure I see benefit from it

If you're planning up to a 90-minute session, then by all means...BCAAs become a very respectible decision. Don't know that you need the WMS per se as you can load CHO of your choice at your workout's conclusion, however - you can stave off catabolism + send gluconeogenic processes into the stratosphere with enough BCAAs through various pathways that are sooooo beyond the scope of this thread unfortunately...not sure if we have done a big BCAA science thread, but it may be worthy discussion down there...dunno, all the theorists and the like can suggest one way or the other.

D_

[B-natural]

uh oh, I've triggered something, yes, finally, maybe some input on the PWO realm and a means to an end for this excessive carb intake in the PWO realm. excessive bein the key in there. and on the other hand, the WMS is somethin I enjoy, I felt it filled me out more when I used it about 2yrs ago, in a diff. way than loadin the carbs and whatnot. and i already bought the bottle, and i have a bottle of weight gainer (i know ROTFLOL, crazy what we learn is beneficial ends up changing or being somewhat wrong over time ) So i at least gotta use up the bottle of the WMS, the weight gainer, ahh it may be an added spice to a weekend meal, maybe half a scoop in oatmeal, or I'll toss it in my sugar shaker and add it in dashes as I need it

[dalvare1]

ok here are my thoughts:
I agree on skipping the WMS till PWO.
BCAA's are great for during workout, I wouldnt add anything to that. Like dinoiii said, save it for Post, when you are completely finished working out.

I think you should figure out what the optimal pre AND Post workout combo would be. What do you think would be the best combo for both pre and post?