Stinging Nettle

[TheKoos]

dinoiii,

Stinging nettle has the highest marks for pro-testosterone in the PCT articles. Do you still believe this to be the case? Based on a few more recent posts by you I thought you may in fact edit the article.

Maybe I am just confused.

[JrBirdMan]

same here, I'd like to know also.

[dinoiii]

I think you guys have made great points here. Terrific question Koos.

So much so, that when I read it, I find myself up at 4:00am HAVING to answer it in depth even with company in town.

It is rather imperative for the reader to keep up with the changing of information to stay on top of things. There are many different accounts on how to judge nettle extracts and the like and I would love to get to the heart of your question, but only with a little digression first to allow me to clarify some things here bringing the reader of these posts (who may not be so familiar with my posts) up to speed. In my PCT:ACV articles, it was dubbed a rather good prostate health supplement, blocking DHT from binding to the prostate cells as well as thwarting off estrogen's powers (which is important for our discussion).

There are actually several estrogens as we also know from that series of articles or otherwise and they become more dominant as men grow older...namely when we consider our testosterone levles propensity to decline starting at roughly 25 to 30 years of age by the factor of ~10% per decade.

This is potentially thrown even more out whack when we consider the post-cycle time frame, but the two are both an increased E:T ratio for simplicity's sake.

In order for estradiol to offer us deleterious concern (lets use - enlarge the prostate for this chat), it has to first stick to the protein SHBG while this protein is stuck to the prostate cell membrane. This linkage between estradiol and SHBG on the cell membrane then directs another protein (insulin-like growth factor) to stimulate growth of the prostate cells, causing prostate enlargement. Current suggestion is that Nettle may stop this froom happening in a couple of ways.

Some aqueous lignans from nettle root can significantly bind to SHBG and prevent it from anchoring to its realm of activity, the cell membrane - at least in test tube studies. You guys have likely heard the particular lignan - increasingly used is 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran. There are rumors that the same German team that reported this also subsequently noted that nettle extract prevented estrogen being made from testosterone, by working as an aromatase inhibitor - BUT LET's MAKE IT CLEAR - this research has NOT been made readily available and has NOT been replicated. Pervasive rumors that nettle is an AI are thus premature (AT BEST), but it has been exploited. Test tubes don't equal people and vice versa (though one would question our concern with the latter).

Anyway, what I am sure what you are more asking is how this may affect the restoration of HPTA imabalances. The truth is that their is little study here. What you may have read me hypothesize about is that in using a product of nettle extract from a particular company, my free T did go up, but I had NOT used it during any post-cycle therapy realm at the time. This could offer us the hypothesis that it may not be ideal for post-cycle regimes albeit a solid compound outside of the post-cycle realm.

To the best of my ability, I would have to qualiy my recommendations (again, I believe you are going by my rating scale at the end of the PCT articles) and suggest the following fully broken down Post-Cycle evidence-based recommendations:


Stinging Nettle FULL EFFECTS Breakdown:

(1) Prostate Health + Symptomatology: ++++ (likely overall great product for this effect for the reasons described above)

(2) Restoration of HPTA: ++ (at a time when we are struggling to get our hormonal profiles back in order, one may call to question how the potential for further suppression through negative feedback systems would be issued appropriate)

(3) Cycle-Specific Time frames: +++ (namely, NOT considered a good agent at all when using things like Superdrol, considering its potential for nephrotoxicity - kidney damage, however ... this tends to be a dose-related response, but in order to achieve true oral effects, you tend to have to surpass what may be dubbed the side effect producing level)

Overall Rating you seen in the article series for this agent: +++ (average of the above 3 scales versus full breakdown)

_________________________
Recalling the PCT:ACV Key:

- = evidence-based efficacy lagging, innumerable potential for side effect or interactions, alternatively inappropriate for the post-cycle time frame

+ = some in vitro / hypothetical evidence to support its rationale, further research needed for general use as well as PCT use

++ = quality in vitro / some in vivo, post-cycle rationale requires further research

+++
or
higher = good in vivo studies + at least one double-blind regarding scenarios that mimic PCT considerations, the more positives above this point is due to the more quality research support
_________________________


I hope this puts some of my suggestions in better order. See the PCT:ACV series as was suggested early on is still but only a "sampling" of a larger body of work...NOT everything, when I made particular edits...it was likely NOT appropriate for me to cut the above as this seems to have been the source of confusion. My apologies for any of that. To think, I already get people that complain how long the original article-series was...hehe, if they only knew that it really stretched out about 3x's what has been posted...YOU NEVER CAN KNOW TOO MUCH about how these various molecules and metabolites affect your body.

_________________________



References:

Schneider T, Rubben H. Stinging nettle root extract (Bazoton-uno) in long-term treatment of benign prostatic syndrome (BPS). Results of a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicenter study after 12 months. Urologe A. 2004 Mar; 43(3): 302-306.

Schottner M, Gansser D, and Spiteller G. Lignans from the root of Urticadioica and their metabolites bind to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Planta Med. 1997 Dec; 63(6):529-532

Tahri A, Yamani S, Legssyer A, Aziz M, Mekhfi H, Bnouham M, and Ziyyat A. Acute diuretic, natriuretic and hypotensive effects of a continuous perfusion of aqueous extract of Urtica dioica in the rat. J Enthnopharmacol. 2000 Nov; 73(1-2): 95-100.

[TheKoos]

Thanks for the informative response.

Tell me if my interpretation is correct.

When looking strictly at the PCT timeframe and restoring natural testosterone production nettle may actually struggle to achive a ++ rating?

[TheKoos]

dinoiii ?.........

[dinoiii]

More detailed response when Mezzogal leaves tomorrow. Sorry - spent SERIOUS TIME on randomization photos et al in my Yellow nEuphoria log...in the meantime, check it out...

You will likely love it.

Sorry if this causes any inconvenience...just want to spend my last hours with her. I am certain you understand. I have lots of things I am doing on this forum already next week. Stay tuned...

D_

[dinoiii]

When looking strictly at the PCT timeframe and restoring natural testosterone production nettle may actually struggle to achive a ++ rating?

Well, the thing is this...if you are looking to restore an altered HPTA, read: one that sees low endogenous T and high serum Gonadotropins - this may not be the ideal case.

Allow me to explain. I have sampled various commercial brands and have found a few to leave me in a position of:

Increased Free T and low SHBG as ads do in fact suggest (though I was NOT on cycle or in post cycle at the time). Now, that said from both a theoretic and real-life point of view, this may not be ideal if this offers continued feedback into the hypothalamus and pituitary gland...i.e. - like the axis continuing its view of an elevated T, with decreased gonadotropins.

Make sense?

D_

[dinoiii]

We are looking at some guys in various scenarios in the clinical realm as we speak to see if we can offer better rationale here as to what kind of effects are seen.


At present, I would say - we need more research here.

D_

[thebigt]

activate for pct-yes or no?

[dinoiii]

Please refer to my response in this thread:

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5907

Thanks and sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.
D_

[TheKoos]

bigt- I think at this time based on info I have gathered the answer would be nettle products are probably better left out of the PCT timeframe. While there may be times that the benefits of increase in Free test are worth a reduction in overall test PCT is not likely one of those times. At least until more information is available.

The results from futher research are anticipated. Please let us know what the results are dinoiii.

[nojoke]

Well, the thing is this...if you are looking to restore an altered HPTA, read: one that sees low endogenous T and high serum Gonadotropins - this may not be the ideal case.

Allow me to explain. I have sampled various commercial brands and have found a few to leave me in a position of:

Increased Free T and low SHBG as ads do in fact suggest (though I was NOT on cycle or in post cycle at the time). Now, that said from both a theoretic and real-life point of view, this may not be ideal if this offers continued feedback into the hypothalamus and pituitary gland...i.e. - like the axis continuing its view of an elevated T, with decreased gonadotropins.

Make sense?

D_

Hate to bring up an old thread, but, it seems justified...

If I'm interpreting this correctly, what u are saying is that the HPTA will look at this as if "on" cycle due to the fact that increased levels of test are circulating?

However, if nettle also reduces e production, which if I'm not mistaken (or am I) is what the HPTA looks at when making it's determination as to whether T is to high, wouldn't that cause the HPTA to be "ok" with this function of nettle in regards to increased T?...thereby not suppressing it?......How high is high for the androgen negative feedback loop to consider shutdown of test production?...Just asking D...

Also, by having decreased LH and FSH levels, this too would seem to stimulate the HPTA, is that right?...And could u use 3,17-dioxo-etiochol-1,4,6-triene to combat the ANFL?...




NJ

[B-natural]

I'd like to see this one to keep going, there was good info started, its nearly a yr later, is there more info/studies to determine (or better determine) a product that frees up SHBG like Activate Extreme in a PCT timeframe?

[RisingAgainst]

I'd like to see this one to keep going, there was good info started, its nearly a yr later, is there more info/studies to determine (or better determine) a product that frees up SHBG like Activate Extreme in a PCT timeframe?
haha... Dinoiii .. is busy gettin his Dinoiii - groove on with his Dinoiii fiancé... huh Dinoiii? hahaha