Is Tribulus necessary?

[Professor X]

Hey whats up guys, Ill probably get bashed for this, but I keep getting pulled in two directions at once. Some people tell me trib is it not necessary @ all for PCT and is just a waste of money due to the other PCT supp. Ill be running, and then other people are telling me its a MUST. Can anyone help me here please? Thanks.

[HealthNut]

It is a matter of personal preference. I, for one, prefer to take it to jump start my natural test production. If you do decide to take it, make sure it is of either Bulgarian or German origin. Trib is of the puncture vine family, but only Bulgarian or German Trib has been shown to be effective. The Chinese and Indian varieties flood the market, but do not have the appropriate protodiscin content. Hope this helps. :)

[REPIT06]

how do u know if its bulgarian or german, and not chinese or inian?

[SNS8778]

Tribulus of any origin is capable of having or not having the correct proto content. For example, there are different grades in each country of origin from a raw material standpoint. Just because it is german doesnt mean it is good, just because it is chinese doesnt make it bad, it actually just depends on what the proto content tests out to be.

[SNS8778]

To answer the original question, alot of people do use tribulus during PCT. Opinions though are mixed on the issue.

You mentioned that you thought it may be a waste with what else you are using for PCT. What else are you using?

[HealthNut]

I might get bashed for what I'm about to share here, but here goes: SAN's Tribuvar is Bulgarian, and there are a few German products on the market...Nutrex Vitrix is German, as I recall. Most high grade trib manufacturers will advertise that fact by listing it on the label. Also, a high quality manufactrer will follow GMP protocols and will HPLC test and certify to ensure good a quality product. Chinese Trib is often loaded with mercury, lead, arsenic and other contaminants... and it is of the wrong puncture vine variety from what I understand. There are only a few companies that actually spend the money to independently test and verify the raw materials for contaminants and just as few companies that test raw materials for a complete spectrum analysis, not limited spec analysis as is often the case...and will go as far as to do complete chemical assays after manufacturing. IMO, Indian trib is a low grade product just as Chisese trib is. The reason why manufacturers use it is because the raw materials are far cheaper and can fatten the profit margin substantially, if not for the easy availability. IMO, I wouldn't waste my money unless I know I'm getting quality, high grade German or Bulgarian. I actually have complete chemical assays on several products and raw materials from suppliers through my OEM manufacturer which happens to be the largest OEM supplement company in the US. They have a very stringent protocol for acquiring raw materials and even more stringent requirements for manufacturing. The company adheres to strict European manufacturing standards, and has a sister division in Europe. The European manufacturing standards are much more stringent than the standards for US and the finished product is typically of pharmaceutical grade. I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, but I feel strongly about the differences in grades of products on the market. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can have a low-grade, private label supplement line with the current loose supplement manufacturing standards in the US (As a matter of fact, I'm preparing to launch one in 2007... but, of high grade in a different niche sector) . Hope this helps. ;)

[SNS8778]

Healthnut - I didnt quote your above as it made the post too long, so I'll reply point by point:
- When comes to terms of a product being 'German', 'Bulgarian', or whatever in our industry, something to keep in mind is that basically what you are looking for is total amounts and percentages of actives.
- No ingredient is necessarily bad because it comes from china. China is probably the most innovative country in terms of new compounds in our industry. That said, remember in any country there can be good and bad raw material suppliers.
- HPLC testing for the things you mentioned pertaining to Trib are not expensive, and in the past when we had looked at doing one, we had several very high quality samples come from china.
- The thing is, you are never 100% sure you are getting german or bulgarian trib unless you trust the manufacturer you buy it from. Anyone can say that on a label. What I would trust is HPLC analysis verifying the proto content.
- Another reason I trust HPLC more so than the country of origin is because there is nothing to stop a company in say Germany reselling Chinese Tribulus and if the manufacturer didnt HPLC test it, they wouldnt know the difference.
- I am not disagreeing with you, just adding a different perspective.

[HealthNut]

Sure, Steve. I'm not disagreeing with you. What I've stated is just my personal opinion and perspective (it may sound a bit strong, but that's just the way I am... I'm passionate about the things I believe in). My opinion is based on the lab assays and HPLC I've seen post manufacture, as well as raw materials certification... also, full spectrum European standardization as opposed to limited spectrum standardization protocols I've seen varying from country to country. However, having traveled to Europe and Asia regularly in my Silicon Valley days, I've seen enough to understand that agricultural protocols as well as manufacturing protocols are quite different from Asia to Europe. Raw material procurement in China is quite lax as opposed to raw material procurement in Germany, for example. Also, in China business is often done with cash under the table and what one may deem "bribery" of state officials from a foreign perspective... however, that is just the culture of business there. I'm not knocking anyone's products here, as I purchase all varieties of products from various manufacturers in the US. However, I personally prefer pharmaceutical grade products as opposed to research grade products as opposed to supplement grade products as opposed to food grade products. Just my 2 cents, please don't take it personal. :D

[SNS8778]

Sure, Steve. I'm not disagreeing with you. What I've stated is just my personal opinion and perspective (it may sound a bit strong, but that's just the way I am... I'm passionate about the things I believe in). My opinion is based on the lab assays and HPLC I've seen post manufacture, as well as raw materials certification... also, full spectrum European standardization as opposed to limited spectrum standardization protocols I've seen varying from country to country. However, having traveled to Europe and Asia regularly in my Silicon Valley days, I've seen enough to understand that agricultural protocols as well as manufacturing protocols are quite different from Asia to Europe. Raw material procurement in China is quite lax as opposed to raw material procurement in Germany, for example. Also, in China business is often done with cash under the table and what one may deem "bribery" of state officials from a foreign perspective... however, that is just the culture of business there. I'm not knocking anyone's products here, as I purchase all varieties of products from various manufacturers in the US. However, I personally prefer pharmaceutical grade products as opposed to research grade products as opposed to supplement grade products as opposed to food grade products. Just my 2 cents, please don't take it personal. :D

We dont even make a tribulus product so there is nothing to take personal. I was just trying to convey that there is another side to this issue that I see everyday as someone in the industry that does deal with raw material suppliers.

My point being that essentially country of origin means next to nothing in alot of cases, testing protocals are what count.

[HealthNut]

I'd have to agree with you there... that test results may be the ultimate decider. But if you'll bear with me for a minute here, the point I'm trying to make is that lab test results do not necessarily tell me what the actual "field" results will be. In a way, it's like if you take a car, for example, dyno the engine, run the skidpad test... get all test results in a lab environment without taking it out on track. Numbers might look great on paper, but how does it actually handle out on the track? I can say for certain in many instances what is on paper does not always hold water to "field" results. In the same sense, a car is a car, but is it a Ferrari? Here's another one: Dr. Amar G. Bose, the founder of Bose Corporation began his business on the same premise. Being the electrical engineer he was teaching at M.I.T. and a professional musician at that, he bought a pair of expensive speakers that looked great "on paper" from an engineering point of view. When he took those speakers home and listened to them, what he heard was something completely different than what the specifications indicated. That discrepancy is why he began his research on acoustics and sound reproduction... after several years of trials and errors, Bose Corporation was born.

That philosophy I hold to the supplement industry as well. Europeans have long understood that it is not just the active constituents in a natural compound, but the inactive constituents that provide the overall "results" or how it affects the living organism. I may be wrong, but that may be why European standardization is based on a comprehensive spectrum, as opposed to limited spectrum standardization of supplement products from other nations.

If anything, my AX SD log is a field test as to how AX's SD works on my body... and I found some interesting sides that was not expected based on all the other SD clone logs I have read as well as the AX "white paper" on SD. In the same sense, I have tried several brands of Trib... including some that were great "on paper." But, my ultimate deciding point was how I responded. I know when I'm on a good trib product because my back breaks out with zits from all the excess test and my nuts ache. I haven't yet had that experience with Chinese or Indian varieties, so I have a tendency of bias to them... perhaps, you can turn me onto a Chinese or Indian Trib product that would give me the results I'm looking for and save me some cash over a more expensive German or Bulgarian origin. But, remember, I'm not fond of the chemical and industrial contaminants found in so many Chinese herbal products.

BTW, I have purchased quite a stash of SNS products to last me a few years... namely, Methyl Drol, Methyl Plex, MOHN XT , Inhibit E and Reduce XT... that should tell you something. :D

[SNS8778]

In reply to what you were saying above, I was not talking about tests coming from Europe or China, I was talking about tests done in the US by independant labs.