How about a PCT breakdown in Newbie terms

[mpnelson81]

What I mean is.. What is a PCT.. or what does/should it consist of? Not necessarily what is your favorite brand/type but what kind of ingredients should a person look for in a PCT? Do different PHs require different PCTs? I hope you understand what I am looking for.

Thank You,
MPNelson81

[NemisisX7]

A good A.I., trib, nettle maybe, SAMe, Saw palmetto, cortisol blockers are optional IMO. A good multi as well. Thats about all I use.

[spliff]

P.C.T.= post cycle therapy... say you do a cycle for four weeks; your pct should be four weeks. It should include in my opinion (constructive criticism welcomed) Hawthorne Berry 1000mg ed (blood pressure), Milk Thistle 1000 mg ed (liver), Red Yeast Rice 1200 mg ed (cholesterol), CoQ10 60 mg ed (heart), Taurine 3 grams ed (back pumps), Celery Seed extract 150 mg ed (blood pressure), and Saw Palmetto (prostate). These should be taken while on cycle and during pct. Some like to front load one or two weeks before stating their cycle.

While on PCT you should be taking a cortisol blocker, anti-e/nolvadex if available, and a test booster like trib. I may be missing some things but there it is.

[dinoiii]

Hey there mpnelson81...welcome to the forum.

I will again first reference you to my article series ("open articles" section...another part of which will drop next friday focusing more on actual pharmaceutics - stepping outside the world of supplementation). I, of course, have tried to be as all-inclusive as is feasibly possible (we are talking over 100 pages at part III and 1/2).

As far as making it "straightforward" - I am ALWAYS willing to answer ANY and ALL questions that may stem from things that seem less than comprehendable.

I think you will see with my comments below that yes, in fact, different post-cycle realms DO call for different agents and ALWAYS careful planning.


__________________________________________________ __

I will comment on spliff's post (only because you asked ;) ) - to you first, welcome to the forum as well - I do NOT believe we have interacted much.

Hawthorn Berry --> Unless this agent is begun "pre" cycle, its effects are usually UNSEEN in the blood pressure correction department. I am not suggesting it to be a bad addition, just one that needs to be thoughfully carried out - starting it roughly 2-3 weeks prior to initiating a cycle would likely be in your best interest from both an efficacy as well as cost-efficiency standpoint. I see that you point out some should be started pre-cycle - likely true with celery seed as well...however, just pointing out that this as a popular agent is one of the ones to do it with.

Milk Thistle --> This is a tricky supplement that is dosed accordingly. Dosing is usually very much so cycle-dependent. I have commented thoroughly on liver-protectant (hepatoprotectant) agents in my article series for those interested - you can fast forward to them.

Red Yest Rice --> for reasons thoroughly described in parts II, III, and III and 1/2 (as well as a Q&A section that follows part III and 1/2 in the thread responses) I DO NOT EMPLOY the use of such an agent. Besides standardization woes do NOT make it cost efficient and if it really were as purported like that of popular statin drugs for cholesterol modification, then the FDA would have cracked down on it years ago (and sort of did -- see articles).

CoQ10 --> this is a great item for use YEAR ROUND - not necessarily cycle dependent, however, one must be somewhat wary that some people respond with a increased heart rate/stroke volume with use of such an item and it may be intolerable for use with agents already elevating the blood pressure (more often seen with various progestins, some nandralone species).

Saw Palmetto --> there is an isolated report (American College of Physicians poster presentation Case Report 2005, Baltimore Chapter) citing a case of liver toxicity and one while "protecting" the prostate may be careful of potentially "worsening" hepatotoxic effects with various agents. Personally, I may actually leave this one out if you are simply doing a 3 or 4 week cycle with an oral alkylated agent.

Cortisol Blocking agents --> should be started about 2.5-3 weeks into post-cycle or you could worsen adrenal function, possibly shutting it down and offering a rebound effect that you were not planning for. For the said reasons, it is both bost efficient and of sound rationale to hold off on it in the immediate post-cycle realm.

[bigboy67]

Cortisol Blocking agents --> should be started about 2.5-3 weeks into post-cycle or you could worsen adrenal function, possibly shutting it down and offering a rebound effect that you were not planning for. For the said reasons, it is both bost efficient and of sound rationale to hold off on it in the immediate post-cycle realm.

what is the reasoning behind holding off on the cortisol blocker. i just started my pct about 3 days ago, and i have been running a cort blocker. but i dont want to screw anything up, crap, hope i get a response soon, but i will suspend my cort blocker at least til i hear back on this.

[dinoiii]

PCT: ACV III amongst other posts offers rationale re: cortisol suppression in the post-cycle realm. May be an area to look at.

In brief:
Post cycle, you are actually in a hypOadrenalism (inclusive of cortisol and other adrenal corticosteroids) state. Rendering further suppression of cortisol not in your best interest at that time. Furthermore, it could actually offer a nasty rebound when cortisol does kick in via route of various feedback systems. Universally, it appears independent of type of cycle 2-3 weeks = appropriate timing of incorporation of such agents...mind you, provided caloric tallies remain adequate. I mean you have to keep your calories appropriately up when you come off cycle initially and gradually reduce. Make sense?

[mpnelson81]

Awesome! Thank you for all of the comments and suggestions....

MPNelson81

[B-natural]

this is a damn good summation of pct items, nice posts fellas

[Clickster]

I think a Cortisol Blocker is essential.

SNS Reduce XT is a great one.


I agree, this is a good thread.

[B-natural]

so dinoiii, when should i use the saw palmetto supp, I have the product great prostate, and will be running a 3wk cycle stacked with a 4-5wk cycle of methyl mass.

[dinoiii]

There are quite a few question answers that may define when and/or how we incorporate use of such a product. A couple are:

(1) Nighttime urination is a problem? If yes, consider it...if using a C-17 alkylated, like I said in another thread - I may incorporate something like Pygeum instead. Now, I wouldn't rest there...if this is really an issue (nighttime urination that is), similar symptoms can be due to prostate cancer, so physician diagnosis is imperative and potentially a PSA blood test (if all this is questionable to you as to nomenclature, please review PCT:ACV Part II under the subsection "Prostate Health."). In theory, self-treatment should not be begun until the potential for cancer is ruled out, however, simple attempts to make sure it is not a constant issue should include:

a) lifestyle modification: elimination of water close to the bedtime period.
b) basic additional supplementation: Addition of pumkin seed oil to a couple protein drinks per day + pygeum (namley if there is history of prostate issues within family, but could be more of a "for piece of mind" ideology for starters but the use of pumkin seed and pygeum is overall very benign)

- if symptom alteration is found with these two basic measures, I would still likely follow up with a minimal prostate exam and PSA blood test, but perhaps at your earliest convenience versus immediate.

(2) Are you an older male? Most of the men on this forum may not answer affirmative here. However, the two biggest risk factors for prostate illness are being male and getting older. Unfortunately, we can control neither! PH/PS/AAS may however make you the equivalent of a guy who is in his 60's to 80's (I shit you not!).



Now, Saw Palmetto in particular has cited cases of hepatotoxic effects which is why I cringe in its use when the liver is already being stressed. However, if you check the lifestyles of the individuals reported on, perhaps they include additional alcohol use, etc... of which is not reported in the case studies.

You do have to make sure that your saw palmetto supp contains a liposterolic extract that includes 85-95% free fatty acids and sterols (MOST COMMERCIAL BRANDS DON'T LIST IT in the first place, so wary is the savvy consumer).



So how would saw palmetto work at alleviating my prostate issues?
In a 6-month, randomized, double-blind trial, saw palmetto berry extract taken 320 mg daily (Permixon, Pierre Fabre, France was brand used) was AS EFFECTIVE as finasteride 5mg/day. Treatment with this extract did NOT reduce PSA levels and therefore did NOT mask a lab value used to help detect prostate cancer (which is why I said, you could likely get away with a little self treatment, however, it is still not advised - cancers caught at early stages have better outcomes data).

Now - hold the horn...don't stop the ejaculation processes :) about saw palmetto before we get too far ahead of ourselves. When you compare the effects of such an extract to alpha receptor blockers (namely alpha-1 selectives...; see PCT:ACV Part IV for a convenient table), saw palmetto is less effective in improving symptoms.

FYI: Consumer Labs.com did an independent review of products containing the appropriate blend as mentioned above. One of the cheapest brands passed with flying colors while one of the most expensive (five times the cost of cheap one) failed miserably.



Dinoiii Summary Statement
A MINIMUM of 4 weeks is MANDATORY to see therapeutic benefit. Convenient that this would be the length of most people's PCT, huh? ;) Therefore, I would recommend limiting this product to the PCT period if asymptomatic without the incorporation of other agents. If symptomatic (again, defined by increased nighttime urination pattern - especially if coupled with the "older" male) - then physical exam with prostate exam and PSA blood test is warranted...however, you may be able to stave off symptoms with Pygeum, Pumkin Seed Oil (2 times/day added to protein drinks - more than this is NOT better btw)...a Physical exam + PSA can be postponed until the NEAR FUTURE - BUT, I say still get them done in case this is a sign of something more deleterious (i.e. - prostate cancer).

[B-natural]

I got the great prostate, and I will use it durin the PCT phase, as this seems ok from what I have taken from the article.