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Sonny
August 18th, 2006, 10:49 AM
Thought this would be helpful to some. A lot is body frame/flexibilty. I can not sumo to save my life and some vice versa but here is some info and some video so you can see the difference.

Well what's it going to be a conventional stance or a sumo stance? Is there a difference? Here are some interesting studies done on the deadlift. Cholewicki et al. (1991) reported in a recent study comparing the sumo and conventional styles that there were no significant differences in compressive disc forces at the L4 or L5 vertebrae. However the conventional deadlift showed significantly more movement and load shear forces in the L4/L5 that the sumo. So as we all pretty much are already aware, the sumo deadlift takes much of the strain and movement from the low back. To further back this statement, Horn (1988) found through an EMG study that the erectors were twice as active in the conventional stance as the sumo.

There are many anecdotal reports as well that claim the sumo deadlift is much more technical and requires more skill. Many also say this technique is more biomechanically sound and more efficient because the bar does not have to travel as far. How true are these anecdotal reports?

To investigate some of these claims McGuinan and Wilson (1996) recently did some extensive biomechanical analysis of the sumo and conventional style deadlift. The following is a summary of what they found:

The lift-off

The sumo has a trunk angle that is significantly closer to vertical that conventional lifters. Sumo lifters were also found to have much larger hip and knee angles at the start of the lift. This style shifts the bulk of the load on the hips and knees. While the conventional lifter with a more stooped-over trunk position at liftoff utilizes more low back muscles to get the weight moving off the floor.

The distance the bar must travel

As reported in other studies, this study also found that the average total distance the bar must travel to complete the lift was reduced by 19%. As we all know work is defined by taking the amount of force or weight and multiplying it by the distance the bar must travel. So by reducing the distance by 19%, the sumo lifter has automatically reduced the amount of work necessary to lift a given amount of weight.

Bar path

Grabiner and Garhammer (1989) noted that the most of the most important factors to be considered in lifting weights is to keep the weight as close to the body as possible. This reduces the lever arm distance, thus significantly reducing the resistive torque. Cholewicki et al. (1991) found that using the sumo stance not only kept the bar closer to the body than the conventional stance but it also reduced the lever arm distance by shortening the movement of the lumbar. McGuinan and Wilson (1996) similarily found that the sumo lift kept the bar path significantly closer to the body that of the conventional stance.

Lift time

Power is defined as total work divided by time. So the actual amount of power it takes to lift the weight is highly dependent on the amount of time it takes to lift the weight. However, McGuinan and Wilson (1996) determined that both the sumo and conventional stance required an average of 2.0 seconds to complete. Thus, there is no difference in the amount of power produced by either lift.

Sticking points

It was found half of the sumo lifters had a sticking point somewhere in the second half of the lift where only 15% of the conventional style lifters got stuck here. However, there seemed to be no exact point in common between the lifters. McLaughlin et al. (1977) claims that these sticking points are actually caused at the point where the most effective muscles in the deadlift are in a disadvantaged position. Because we are all built slightly different, this point could vary from lifter to lifter. This exact position can be determined with a Peak motion analysis. Horn (1988) determined that a kinetic analysis using an EMG study of the ankle, hip, and low back in conjunction with strength testing could also accurately determine which muscle group would limit performance during the deadlift. Then proper assistance work could be used to lessen these sticking points.

Video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zYsWybhF7bo

UNCfan1
August 18th, 2006, 02:54 PM
Great post Sonny, I think I will try the sumo style deadlift next time I do them.

Clayton South
August 18th, 2006, 03:38 PM
When I used to powerlift I did sumo's a lot. I find that my strength shot up a lot, simply because I was having to generate more force at the bottom. They're great for strenght so long as they're done right. Same with deep squats.

-Clayton South
Industry Writer
ISSA Certified Specialist in Performance Nutrition

MVP
August 20th, 2006, 10:13 AM
Like to see powerlifting posts Sonny! You know my vote is for sumo. I have to cause i'd fall forward on conv. Plus I probably couldn't do 2 plates.LOL.

Sonny
August 20th, 2006, 10:29 AM
Like to see powerlifting posts Sonny! You know my vote is for sumo. I have to cause i'd fall forward on conv. Plus I probably couldn't do 2 plates.LOL.


We are the opposite. I can conventional about 200# more-it's not even close. I don't even try sumo anymore. I wish I could sumo and make the bar path much shorter with my long arms...oh well.

machine
August 20th, 2006, 03:31 PM
I am a huge fan of sumo style. reason being, I am short.

cavemuscle
April 20th, 2007, 06:23 AM
Did conventional for years and could not figure out how to keep my back from aching. Eddie at the Weight Room introduced me to sumo and the lower back pain went away. I'm good for touch and go's at 305, and my ass and innerquads are much stronger.

That being said, it is a skill. foot placement, back angle, keeping the bar close in and pulling it up your leg all take getting used to. Shaving and talc help there, at least for me.

Brock

KinesitionChirossage
May 13th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Sumo all the way for me too! I started doing conventional, but my lower back was always very sore, and no matter how much I concentrated, I always hit my knees very hard on the bar. Sumo allows me to almost completely avoid hitting my knees. And as long as I'm not going too heavy, my lower back usually feels fine after sumos. To contradict myself here; I do conventional style when I do rack pulls though. Sumo feels weird, plus I need to somehow build up my lower back.

bigboy67
May 13th, 2007, 03:53 PM
i love doing sumos. feels like more of a natural movement to me. i cant do as much as conventional, but i agree that i definitely feel better after sumos.


plus, NOBODY ever does deadlifts at the gym, let alone sumos, so its great seeing people stare at you, you can tell they've never considered an exercise like a sumo dead.

my only problem with sumos is the shin destruction that comes along with it, but i solved that by cutting off the legs of an old wet suit that i had and i wear the neoprene while i do sumos, works great

RisingAgainst
May 14th, 2007, 04:03 AM
I was 'rasied' (lol I like the term) on Conventional deadlifting... I have never done a sumo, and honestly, I dunno if I ever will. I love conventional deads and they love me back.... LOL!
EDIT: In case nobody catches it... they love me BACK... hahahahahaha

Sonny
May 14th, 2007, 08:17 AM
I was 'rasied' (lol I like the term) on Conventional deadlifting... I have never done a sumo, and honestly, I dunno if I ever will. I love conventional deads and they love me back.... LOL!
EDIT: In case nobody catches it... they love me BACK... hahahahahaha

I would have missed it. LOL!

TheKoos
May 19th, 2007, 03:00 PM
It looks like they come close to setting the weights down on thier feet with that wide stance.

I have not tried it and may not because I like my feet.

KinesitionChirossage
June 2nd, 2007, 01:43 AM
i love doing sumos. feels like more of a natural movement to me. i cant do as much as conventional, but i agree that i definitely feel better after sumos.


plus, NOBODY ever does deadlifts at the gym, let alone sumos, so its great seeing people stare at you, you can tell they've never considered an exercise like a sumo dead.

my only problem with sumos is the shin destruction that comes along with it, but i solved that by cutting off the legs of an old wet suit that i had and i wear the neoprene while i do sumos, works great

Yeah, me and my boys are pretty much the only ones around my gym that are doing any deadlifting. I find it funny how I do get a decent audience every time I start my heavy deadlifting sets. People are perplexed as to how I can smile through my whole set @ 405. You oughtta' see my shit eating grin. It is priceless:D Not to mention the 20 second hand ripping hold on the last rep of my last set of deadlifts.
As far as tearing your shins to pieces, there really is no way to avoid it. Sumo, or conventional, it doesn't even matter. If you are executing the proper form on both of the styles, then you should be ripping your shins to shreds. I proudly display my filleted, hairless, scabbed shins with pride. Like I have said before, powerlifters, and body builders are definitely different breeds of people. Go to a body building show, and go to a powerlifting meet, and compare. Most powerlifters are very down-to-earth, friendly, blue-collar workers who'll root you on as if you were their own son. BBs are generally the more frat boy types, EXTREMELY self conscious, the type of guy that will always try to fight you at a party, has a barbwire tatoo around his bicep. You know what I'm talking about. Go ahead and display your jacked up shins proudly soldier. Chicks dig scars:o

buddha
June 7th, 2007, 09:47 AM
i've never done sumos.i looks like you'll use more muscle doing it this way.
how is the difference on the knees?better,worse ,the same? this is a huge factor for me.
the sumo stance seems that the knees are more stabilized.if that's the case i would assume that one could generate a bit more power using this lift.

Sonny
June 7th, 2007, 10:12 AM
i've never done sumos.i looks like you'll use more muscle doing it this way.
how is the difference on the knees?better,worse ,the same? this is a huge factor for me.
the sumo stance seems that the knees are more stabilized.if that's the case i would assume that one could generate a bit more power using this lift.

I would disagree on using more "muscle" doing sumo. You are using different groups more with each way as stated earlier. Most would say you have to muscle up conventional deads whereas sumo is more technical. Depends on what your knee problem is. I have see people having to switch from both ways due to this. Your power will come from how you are built and what muscles have been developed more. If you have a very strong back and hams you may be a better conventional DL. If you have powerful hips sumo may turn out better. Best advice is to try both and see what happens. I was always a conventional DL and alwasy will. It works for me.

Ironically, although the bar path travels considerable less in sumo for a good lift, out of the 11 people who have DL over 900#, there are only 2 who have done it sumo.-901 and 909. 6 people have done more than that up to 1003 conventional.

UNCfan1
June 7th, 2007, 07:43 PM
Sonny what do u think is better for overall back thickness? Racks, Sumo, Traditional?

Sonny
June 7th, 2007, 09:02 PM
Sonny what do u think is better for overall back thickness? Racks, Sumo, Traditional?

Well, conventional (traditional) works the back more than sumo. Sumo derives a lot of its power from hips/glutes. Not to say your back is not hit sumo just different degrees. As far as racks go, I find them to be dangerous for me. They put me out of position, I do not do them. I guess since the beginning part of the lift involves a lot of leg drive maybe racks would potentially target the back more depending on where you put the pin. I prefer the full range though. I do not like using compound like moves for isolation work but rather for power. I would use other exercises like rows to target thickness.

UNCfan1
June 7th, 2007, 10:19 PM
Well, conventional (traditional) works the back more than sumo. Sumo derives a lot of its power from hips/glutes. Not to say your back is not hit sumo just different degrees. As far as racks go, I find them to be dangerous for me. They put me out of position, I do not do them. I guess since the beginning part of the lift involves a lot of leg drive maybe racks would potentially target the back more depending on where you put the pin. I prefer the full range though. I do not like using compound like moves for isolation work but rather for power. I would use other exercises like rows to target thickness.

Thanks Sonny.