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dinoiii
March 19th, 2006, 06:58 AM
Dinoiii's Rant VIII: Sketch of Some Thoughts in Progress - Free Will

[author's note: the complexity of this topic choice may disuade readers - its simply thoughts at a moment in time...stream of conscious sometimes plays into the complexity - so my apologies in advance.]

Free Will is a complex issue that is made even more tangled when we are unclear about which of its two major aspects we are arguing -- its existence or our belief in it. We would do well to differentiate the two.

Belief in free will is the factor that gets people hot, particularly when its threatened. Belief is also where humans have most obviously benefited throughout our Darwinian history. Indeed, the evolutionary advantages of free will can be argued to have been gained through our belief in it. There is considerable force of reason to positions that the lack of such a belief would be selected against, and that this belief is a predominate feature of human beings.

Once beyond the belief arguments, we can focus on the existence of free will. This is a job for cool heads, for the arguments are as convoluted as the cerebral cortex. On the other hand, we can argue that a set of neural circuits behaved as it did according to a large body of natural laws, some of which are known, and some of which are yet to be discovered. Therefore determinism is ex jure, if not demonstrably ex facto, the only logically acceptable state of affairs. On the other hand, there resides in the human nervous system sufficient complexity and interconnectedness for alternatives, lots of them, to exist right up until the time when a decision is taken -- or when the event occurs, if you prefer.

Where I'm tending is a position that notices free will exists before the fact in the very nature of a complex, heavily interconnected nervous system where predictions are best given in terms of moment-to-moment shifting patterns of probabilities that each of a large set of events may occur. After the fact, we can look back into the system (fancifully, if not in fact) to see that a single and unique path -- albeit a complex one -- was put in service, and we can use that knowledge to support a determinist position.

But isn't that just how it is? Free will exists for the future; it is defined in terms of options that might be exercised, and the best free will arguments are made in terms of the future. Those that focus on the past are weak and easily overcome by deterministic positions. Contrariwise, determinism arguments are best framed around events that have already happened and can be explained by, say, the neural connections that were made. But the determinism arguments are weak when applied to the future. Gordon Globus played this all out quite nicely for us: The deterministic prediciton does NOT hold for us if we have a knowledge of it, for we can always behave in a contrary fashion -- or not. Either way, the before-the-fact deterministic position is faulted.

So far, this is what we have: Both free will and determinism have support -- but for different times. Free will holds for the future, and determinism holds for the past. Some people will have trouble with this conclusion. They won't be able to accept that one explanation holds for one time and another for a second. My advice is that they reflect on their own puberty and consider the explanations that worked for, say, their behavior toward members of the opposite sex before and after that event. By comparison, grasping this formulation of free will and determinism should be a piece of cake.

Now, consider just what (or who) exercises free will. When free will is invoked, there is often a large decision to be made. For these major matters of moment, might it be the emergent mind that exercises -- indeed embodies -- free will? Free will is a large responsibility and may well require the largest mind, the one that is the emergent whole from all the complexity and interconnectedness that characterize our biological selves, most particularly our brains?

The future over which we esercise free will holds options toward which we turn our awareness, our consciousness. So could free will be a function of phenomenological mind, that portion of emergent mind of which we are privately, self-ly aware? I doubt it. Phenomenological mind is to ego involved, too focused on self-in-the-moment to attend to all the working brain's richness of experience and genetics, of complexityand inerconnectedness, of furious flux and shifting probabilities. Phenomenological mind would get the news of course, and might believe it played a major path in the decision, as it may indeed have. But for ultimate power of choice, I'll cast my vote with the larger, emergent mind.

At least that's how I choose to understand the matter for the moment. As Scarlet O'Hara and I both know, "Tomorrow is another day," and upon looking back, I may determine I was wrong.


I will live to rant again...
D_

Jswoll
March 20th, 2006, 04:23 PM
Free will holds for the future, and determinism holds for the past.
And this is the point where I would have turn this into a rant on the true nature of space-time, but Dinoiii, thought's on this view determinism+chaos theory=psuedo free will, thus null and voiding determining the where free will comes from. Of course by my personality you can tell I don't believe this, but it's a valid perspective, no?

dinoiii
March 21st, 2006, 08:28 AM
Hmmmm...

Validity lies with the ability to support the theory. Your "not believing it" too is a rough sell.

Jswoll
March 21st, 2006, 08:37 AM
Hmmmm...

Validity lies with the ability to support the theory. Your "not believing it" too is a rough sell.
Yes, but here at Jswoll's used auto emporium we can sell the dickens outta anything, half price, low price, vincent price, no matter we'll do what it takes to make the sell!

I doubt very much that true support can be given to anything of a philosophical nature, but I think you and I shall have fun with this thread, will post up thoughts tomorrow.

dinoiii
March 21st, 2006, 08:39 AM
...will post up thoughts tomorrow.

I look forward to it! ;)

Semper Fidelis
March 21st, 2006, 09:58 AM
Thats why I paractice "free will" in my choice to do cardio (eventhough it rubs dinoiii the wrong way). hahahahahaha. Sorry fellas, inside joke between the ranter and I.

Semper Fidelis

Jswoll
March 22nd, 2006, 08:12 AM
will post up thoughts tomorrow.
Things happened and maybe it was free will or not but I will now step back and give myself a looser time frame, before the weekend, sorry for the delay.

dinoiii
March 22nd, 2006, 01:19 PM
I continue to eagerly await...but today you're in luck...I have been occupied with another thread most of the time! ;)

Jswoll
March 22nd, 2006, 03:30 PM
I continue to eagerly await...but today you're in luck...I have been occupied with another thread most of the time! ;)
Noticed, so how's it going with that? I've been trying to stay out of it, for reasons I posted, but when it ends (if) somebody tell me so I may review. I can see why you didn't want to directly post up about that certain supp. and to some degree, perhaps, that's why I'm steering clear of it.

Clickster
March 22nd, 2006, 08:10 PM
I have also stayed clear of that. I am just confused on how much Fish Oil to take now. I am going to just stick with what I have been taking.

I trust dinoiii. ;)

Jswoll
March 23rd, 2006, 08:33 AM
I trust dinoiii. ;)
Bad move, not knocking Dinoiii--I hold his opinion in high regard, just that in all things trust youself and the knowledge you've obtained and sorted through as valid or invalid; Think for yourself, trust nothing, probe at everything, speculate, research, read, learn, form opinions, validate your ideas, tell others about them, but don't TRUST.

Clickster
March 23rd, 2006, 10:21 PM
ok... I will rephrase that. I have the same opinion as Dinoii regarding Fish Oil.

Better? lol

Jswoll
March 24th, 2006, 08:35 AM
just making a point, Click.

Jswoll
March 24th, 2006, 03:23 PM
Weekend delay, I have a motorcross race outta town(not racing, flagging...and picking up chicks;)) but I will get to this but to tell the truth ranting is back burner stuff for me, a couple of priority PM's took time, my personal life, well you get the gist.

Clickster
March 24th, 2006, 10:29 PM
just making a point, Click.

I know bro, I was just messin with ya. ;)

UltimateFighter
March 26th, 2006, 02:46 PM
we have no free will

and certain people spring to mind

phillip K dick
watchowski brothers
jake horsley
Carlos castaneda
plato
Baudrillard

and so on ;)

dinoii

i also know.