Splitting body groups for Max Gains

[USFstud]

Whats up guys...

I have been working out seriously for about 5 years now. In the past I have mainly just split my workout routines into 1 body group per day:
Monday: Bicpes/Forearms
Tuesday: Chest
Wednesday: Legs
Thursday: Shoulders
Friday: Triceps
Saturday: Back

I am about to do a Fitness Challenge at my Rec-Center that lasts 3 months and I am looking to gain about 20-25lbs.

So, I was wondering if anyone had any ideas in ways that I can better split up my routine for the MAXIMUM gains. Or, if anyone could just post a web-site where you found a great program that has really worked. If it helps, I am planning on taking creatine and other prohormones so my recovery time will be increased.

I try and stick with heavy weight and commonly do an 8-6-4 program. For large muscle groups like chest I do 4 excercises.

Thanks for the info

[wedgylx]

The problem here is that noone can tell you what is going to work best for you. Everyone is so different. I've always relied on heavy weights 4-6 reps for pretty much all exercises. But there are people out there who SWEAR by high volume.

You have a pretty quality split there, you can always group bi's with tri's and have a free day for cardio or just hanging around. I work my forearms directly only every 2 weeks. They get enough punishment for most of the exercises i do, plus i never get great results from forearm workouts.

your split looks pretty solid though, i cant see any real conflicts. Maybe putting back between shoulders and tri's since alot of shoulder exercises with stimulate tri's and you dont want them tired out

[max von]

I agree with wedglyx high volume does me know good if i can do 7 or 8 of a weight it is to light i always go heavy otherwise my body just gets tone and never gains anysize. I also lose weight that way

max von

[USFstud]

True. Thanks guys, I just really wanted some reinforcement that what I was doing sounded ok. And I like that idea about moving back Wedgylx, Ill switch that around.

[max von]

no problem we are always here to help good luck

max von

[ghostwheel]

This is my split, but I am 40 years old not a college student. The focus is to totally wipe out one body part per day with a concentrated high intensity workout not going too far over 1 hour time per workout so your cortisol levels don't spike. (Use PS serine post workout)

Day 1 :Chest : 4 sets flat bench; 3 sets incline bench; 3 sets decline bench on a smith machine for safety (use stops) and to allow max weight; flys on a back machine reversed; if you have anything left in the tank after that. LOWER cable crossovers; incline dumbell press. To increase your weight do the 5 sets 5 reps each where you can barely get the last rep in.

Day 2 BIceps: Preacher cable curls 4 sets alternate with Cable curls balanced on a duraball that is on a flat bench where you kneel at the bench and use the ball as a preacher extension (place elbow on ball) whist grabbing a D handle attached to a cable machine. Do it till exaustion one arm at a time till you biceps feels like it will explode, then slightly change the angle on the ball and keep going! Your arm should feel like it is on fire when you drop the D handle, but just take the pain! After four sets alternating between the duraball and the cable preacher curl do some drop sets of alternating dumbell curls right away. Break 10 minutes or so than do some dumbell curls, incline bench dumbell curls. And if that does;t completely destroy your biceps try this: Grab a barbell and do one bicep curl, rest and count 1- 1000 than do 2 curls, count 2-secs (still holding barbell) than do three curls , count 3 secs rest, than 4 , 5 ,6 etc. Do some triceps work too, but they should still be bombed from all the day one bench press, especially if you did the decline smith bench press real heavy.

Day 3 Legs: It is good to do legs next because a big muscle group like legs will spike your natural GH reponse. Nothing fancy, just go heavy with squats or leg presses supersets and extensions. Stretch out you muscles.

Day 4- OFF

Day 5- OFF Light cardio Ab work

Day 6- Back day- Romanian Deadlift, Lat pulldowns, pullups, rows, Talk to your chirpracter about this is too individual.

Day 7 Bench press

Day 8 Biceps/ triceps

2 off days than start all over again!

You can do light cardio or swimming on off days but take it easy on off days. You are destroying one body part a day!

Hope this helps

[wedgylx]

ghost,
Obviously everyone is different but it really sounds like you're overtraining.

[ghostwheel]

It might seem that way at first glance.

But really: 3 one hour days; 2 days off; 3 one hour days 2 days off. Doesn't sound like over training to me. Each body part gets 5 or 6 rest days (five or six days off before it is worked again) count the days, count the hours. It is HIGH intensity. It is short but super intense. Hit the gym with a vengence and DESTROY that barbell! Get mad!

After you get a few years more under your belt, give it a try.

[max von]

ghostwheel

if it works for you nad you like the results keep it. but as wedg says were all different and thats more than i would be doing but thats my body

max von

[ghostwheel]

i don't see how six hours a week is overtraining

[max von]

ghost

it may not be for you but i think that wedglyx would agree with me that would be to much for me and i dont always go a certain time just keep in mind if it feels good for you and you get good results go for it

max von

[wedgylx]

ghost, for example bi's I only need 6-9 sets to grow. You do far more than that. I'm not saying you're wrong...some people love high volume, I'm just saying it wouldnt work for me.

[max von]

wedglyx

i agree any thing more that 9 for bis or tris is way to much for me i dont see the grow

max von

[ghostwheel]

Pick up this month Jan. issue of Flex. "Big Arms, 10 pros show you how"

Art Atwater does up to 28 sets of bicep movements.
Gustavo Badell does 22 sets
Frank Roberson 20 sets of 20 reps each!
Mike Matarazzo 20 sets 10-12 reps each

Not one of these pros only does 6-8 set for biceps and expects anything to happen.

Is it possible these professionals might actually know what they are doing and you guys are mistaken? :roll:

6-8 sets isn't enough, because biceps are really quite different (smaller muscle group) then the major muscle groups like chest or legs and therefore react very different.

What you guys are calling a workout isn't even a warm up.
:shock:

(insert your favorite GIRLIE MAN comment here)

The first thing they should teach college kids is what they don't know and how vast that void of knowledge is, and if you can accept that and be humble, time will teach you it's own lessons.

[wedgylx]

Ghost, with the coctails of anabolic steroids professionals are on, they could train march harder and not go catabolic. People like me and you however have much stricter guidelines.

You asked our opinion and we gave it to you. You can do your 1000 sets for bi's if you want but for 99.9% of the population that would practically be worse than not working bi's directly at all

[ghostwheel]

wedgylx wrote:

You asked our opinion...

Wedg- I never asked YOUR opinion on my workout. Why would I ask some cherry college kid who doesn't know sh*t from shinola anything? You have NO relative life experience next to a 40 year old.

Your mind is almost as empty as your biceps muscles.

Go bother someone else.

[wedgylx]

wedgylx wrote:

You asked our opinion...

Wedg- I never asked YOUR opinion on my workout. Why would I ask some cherry college kid who doesn't know sh*t from shinola anything? You have NO relative life experience next to a 40 year old.

Your mind is almost as empty as your biceps muscles.

Go bother someone else.

As a member of the board, you did ask me for my opinion the second you posted your workout.

I have enough "relative life experience" to know that people like you dont deserve my help...I'll go "bother someone else" though, someone who will listen

[max von]

Ghost i dont know why you are continuing to go at this issue both wedglyx andd my self have said if it works for you then go for it. One thing is if you ask for advice sometimes we dont always hear what we always want to hear but please dont even compare us to the guys in flex magazine when you qoute workout for real world people, i mean come om i read in M&F that Ronnie colman is 270 lbs and less that 1% bodyfat and a 34 inch waist come on dude if we spent that kinda money on juice im sure it would work for us too. You do whats best for yourself and well do our own program and leave it at that okay

max von

[max von]

ghost you have 35 post on here wedglyx is well over 350 and yes you did ask for our advice as far a age goes if you are really 40 there is only 5 years between us. dont come on the board and pick fights with people or take personal shots at them if you disagree with them state your point and then move on we do not take personal shots at each other so please stop

max von

[wedgylx]

ghost you have 35 post on here wedglyx is well over 350 and yes you did ask for our advice as far a age goes if you are really 40 there is only 5 years between us. dont come on the board and pick fights with people or take personal shots at them if you disagree with them state your point and then move on we do not take personal shots at each other so please stop

max von

Thanks max

[dinoiii]

Ok, I am going to suggest that the same comments I placed in the PH forum apply.






Wedg...I don't think a crack at another forum was the right thing to do.

[wedgylx]

Ok, I am going to suggest that the same comments I placed in the PH forum apply.






Wedg...I don't think a crack at another forum was the right thing to do.

removed it as not to upset anyone.

[italionstallionl]

i am willing to bet big $$ that if ghost did not know wed's age he would think much differently about his posts

[USFstud]

Hey guys... sorry its been a while since I have posted in here, I know I was the one asking for the advise- I got in a minor car accident and I have been handling that crap.

Ghost -
I think that you gave some really good tips, but I did have some questions about the techniques of your biceps curls on a duraball. You were recommending kneeling on a bench and then putting the ball on the bench as well (??)- could you explain that setup a little better. It sounds like that movement would really burn out the bi's but I a little worried about balance, but I dont think that I am picturing it well in my head. And then you superset the standing cable curls with the duraball curls, correct? In doing so, do you wait between each respective excercise, or do you do 1 standing curl set, 1 duraball set, then break, then start over. Or, is there a break between all sets?

Then, you said that you do a one bicep curl with the barbell, that really sounds like it would require alot of stabilizers - Ill have to try that one out - just to make sure you were talking about one of the bench press long barbells right, b/c at USF there are some smaller like half length barbells?

Also, in reference to what you were saying about how you do your set with that one-handed barbell, it reminded me of a workout routine that I have used before. I found it on *****************, it was an article called "Add an Inch to your arms in 45 days". The program worked for me, although there is a hell of a lot of volume included in it, so Max and Wedgylx might not like it. You should take a look at it and you can find it just by doing a search on ***************** (its too long for me to explain).

Then for my two bits on the volume debate -- I think the difference for me is in regards to my supplements. If I am on creatine or a prohormone, I really feel that I can go in the gym and abuse the weights a little more. I know a lot of guys disagree with this, and would say that I am just not working hard enough in the sets that I am doing. But, I really find it to be a mental thing when I am on some performance-enhancers. A good agrument to bring up is that when on those suppplements recovery time is increased, and creatine is suppose to increase endurance, so I dont feel that I am overtraining. I dunno, I am still young and I have a lot to learn and try out, but I really like hearing others opinions, espcially veterans like Ghost. And I feel that I learn alot just from asking guys in the gym, and now you guys, what you think about stuff. So, this forum is tight as hell.

[wedgylx]

Hey guys... sorry its been a while since I have posted in here, I know I was the one asking for the advise- I got in a minor car accident and I have been handling that crap.
That sucks bro, i was in one about 3 weeks ago. Still waiting to hear back from the insurance.
there is a hell of a lot of volume included in it, so Max and Wedgylx might not like it.

volume has its role, just like everything else in bbing. Sometimes to shock the muscle I'll do 2 weeks of higher volume. I stated that for me, low volume is the golden ticket. If it works keep it, its just that there are so many variables in the journey to build a better body that nothing should be over-looked, and no rock should be left unturned. You need to try everything and sort the good from the bad. The answers wont be the same for everyone.

Science-wise, higher volume workouts leave you at a much higher risk of going very catabolic. This obviously is not a good thing. You just want to avoid overtraining the best you can.

[max von]

Wedglyx

i agree with you but we all must keep in mind here that everones body is different and what works from you will not work for me. thats the fun part of body building is that there are so many vaiables and so many different ways of exercising that no one should ever get bored with it. I try to keep an open mind and now that what i think may not be always right but USFstud if it works for you and you like what you see in the mirror thats all that matters

max von

[ghostwheel]

Just wanted to answer this one question of USF without a fuss if that is possible.

Kneel one knee IN FRONT OF the bench, place the duraball on the bench
grab a D handle attached to a cable/pulley. Place elbow on the ball. Curl the D handle up. This is easy on the joints around the elbow because the ball has some give when you curl, so your biceps gets the work without the ligaments getting shredded if you go heavy and hard. Again this is due to the give of the ball.

I superset this with a strict cambered cable preacher curl. To set up the cable curl, place a preacher platform in front of a cable/pulley station, attach a short cambered bar to the cable. Lift up as much weight as you can curl for 8 or so reps, then place your arms on the preacher bench and curl. DON'T lean back to use leverage to curl the cable, keep leaning forward with your armpits full against the preacher bench.

I usually do the stricter preacher bench cable curl first, then since the duraball is easy on the ligaments surrounding the elbow joint do the Duraball version next. Then rest and repeat each set four times. At this point there is blood flowing in the biceps and they feel warmed up and ready to rock.

When I finish the last one I RUN right over to the dumbells and do a quick drop set of alternating dumbel curls to peak out. After a brief break i do heavy sets of alternating dumbell curls. Incline bench curls, Isolated curls against the knee, what ever it takes to break down the muscle and shock it so it will grow. My body is used to the high volume now. But really we are only talking about around 14-16 sets. If you seperate out the supersets into individual sets for counting purposes thst is what it comes to.

I don't do a one arm barbell curl. Sounds dangerous.

I do get some looks for hogging the whole Flex cable workout area. But when I shop the the Kona natural heath food store after a curl workout the "cherry college girls" who work the check stand seem to stare straight at my pumped up biceps, which is why I guess they are called guns. It is worth it!

[dinoiii]

Wedg...I don't think a crack at another forum was the right thing to do.

removed it as not to upset anyone.


Yeah - Good Decision! But I am sure you mean that you removed it in good taste because you felt you made a mistake by putting it up in the first place, right? :lol:

I am just kidding with you - it was a good decision...I find your explanation of why you removed it interesting is all.

[USFstud]

lol - thats good news about those college girls, but leave some for me and Wedgylx. And thanks for the info on that bi workout, it sounds like you do get an insane pump out of it.

And yeah, that was a misread on my part on the "one handed barbell curls", you wrote "one curl" - hope no one read my post and tried that nonsense out - hahahah

Wedgyl and Max (Or anyone else)- what were your thoughts on chaning your routine a little (such as adding another excercise to really burn out a muscle group to get more sets) when on supplements such as creatine or andro? Or, do you keep the same format of the high weights/lower volume, and then just move up some weight when on the drugs, ie. making the most of out the sets that you do?
And then one more question, when I have tried out the lower volume like you guys were talking about, b/c I have heard alot about that. I still stuck to my just one muscle group per day workout that I metioned in the first part of this thread. Maybe that was why I didnt see good results ,b/c my workouts were just like 30 minutes or so, and I really felt like I didnt "do enough". But, I still stopped my workout after doing the fewer excercises. So, my question is that do you workout your muscles in a more sped up manner, such as trying to hit all groups 2x say in a 8-10 day split. B/c on the lower volume, and leaving 1 full week for recovery, as I am doing, I can see my biceps and chest start to shrink around day 5-7.
(then as a sidenote- in that workout "add an inch to your arms in 45 days" it was sick volume and you hit bis and tris both monday and friday - and when I did this routine, i still felt I had ample recovery.)

[wedgylx]

Wedg...I don't think a crack at another forum was the right thing to do.

removed it as not to upset anyone.


Yeah - Good Decision! But I am sure you mean that you removed it in good taste because you felt you made a mistake by putting it up in the first place, right? :lol:

I am just kidding with you - it was a good decision...I find your explanation of why you removed it interesting is all.
I dont seeing bashing that particular board as being in bad taste at any time :lol:

[dinoiii]

I would debate that the increased size put on by many volume programs to the biceps (which seems to be the muscle of choice in discussion here) is NOT size (as in NEW TISSUE)...it is just as you guys suggest - PUMP!!!


This is anatomically + physiologically IMPOSSIBLE, but hey "I was just saying."

[USFstud]

Just thought of one more thing to throw out there that I think would be interesting is the difference in recovery time needed for different body parts. If anyone is really knowledgable about this maybe they help out a little more (Dr. dinoiii maybe). For example, I have heard that definately abs, and some people have said Calvs, can be trained nearly every day. But what about chest, legs, bis...etc...

[wedgylx]

USF,
When I am on cycle I will incorporate drop sets or supersets more often, but I wont turn up the volume that much. If I'm feeling stronger I go up in weight, not up in reps.

Just my last bi workout, if it helps at all.

Bi's
Standing DB curls - 40lbs X 8
-------------------45lbs X5, X4

Preacher Curls - 115lbs X5, X4
----------------105lbx X6

Hammer Curls - 35lbs X8, X7

Drop Sets cable concentration curls
50lbs X10----- 60lbs X7
40lbs X6------ 50lbs X6
30lbs X6------ 40lbs X5

as for recovery time, i give all my muscles 5-7 days rests between direct training. That goes for every muscle including abs.

[italionstallionl]

i dont think any muscle should be trained every day or nearly everyday, max 2x a week for any muscle, thats what i go by

[USFstud]

Hey guys...I just got done catching up on some reading in the prohormones section and I just wanted to say sorry to open up a sore wound on this thread, I didnt know there was an identicle debate going on in prohormones. Like I said I have been doing stuff from my accident (Ands thanks for the concern on that issue earlier wedgylx - hope you get some $$ from your insurance company - the one thing that we pay for that everyone is afraid to use, lol) and I was a little preoccupied.

[wedgylx]

Hey guys...I just got done catching up on some reading in the prohormones section and I just wanted to say sorry to open up a sore wound on this thread, I didnt know there was an identicle debate going on in prohormones. Like I said I have been doing stuff from my accident (Ands thanks for the concern on that issue earlier wedgylx - hope you get some $$ from your insurance company - the one thing that we pay for that everyone is afraid to use, lol) and I was a little preoccupied.

Don't worry about it bro, I hope you get your fair share of dough too.

[italionstallionl]

hope both of you are doing alright from your accident, i was in one a year and a half ago, pretty ugly, someone came across the center and hit me head on, i was going about 35 they were going 40-45, car was totaled, so was i, i couldnt do anything for a week, just lay there. sucked big time.

[wedgylx]

hope both of you are doing alright from your accident, i was in one a year and a half ago, pretty ugly, someone came across the center and hit me head on, i was going about 35 they were going 40-45, car was totaled, so was i, i couldnt do anything for a week, just lay there. sucked big time.

I was rear-ended on I-95....the guy in front of me stopped short and i stopped inches away from his car. Then a Jeep Cherokee smashed me doing at least 35-40mph. My car is pretty screwed up but driveable. I was sore for a few days but it went away. I'm pretty sure the insurance company is going to try to total my car, not that I will let that happen.

[italionstallionl]

im glad mine got totaled, i had a honda del sol, so you can imagine that tiny car and my accident, ugly, anyway i paid 5500 for it, it was worth 7000, so i ended up gaining 1500 from it

[max von]

italion

you cant beat that kinda deal thats mony in the pocket way to go

max von

[wedgylx]

im glad mine got totaled, i had a honda del sol, so you can imagine that tiny car and my accident, ugly, anyway i paid 5500 for it, it was worth 7000, so i ended up gaining 1500 from it

yeah I have a mercury cougar. I paid $4000 for it and its blue book it around $5000. Still, even if i get $5000, I dont think I'll ever find a deal like the one i got. i love this damn car.

[italionstallionl]

thats what i thought about the deal i got, then i found a 3000gt, paid 7000 for it, i swear it booked for 12000 when i bought it, no joke, it might seem like i banked pretty good, but i would say i wouldnt do it again, the injuries and pain was definitely not worth it

4 months of physical trraining, countless visits to the doctor, had to miss the first half of my senior year of golf season, not to mention it threw off the second half of my season

[max von]

italion

that part would suck but the money would be nice to have hope you feel better

max von

[italionstallionl]

thanks max, im over it now (except for my knee, which hinders all leg lifts)

[max von]

i hear ya ive got a bad knee and that really ruins everything cause i have to be carefull with it

max von

[italionstallionl]

the main thing that it kills me with is i cant squat, yes i know how important squats are, but i cant squat without any weight without extreme pain, and i mean it kills, you might be thinking maybe you should get that looked at, well i did, and have for many years, and i had surgery, but it got re-messed up in my accident, and another surgery wont do anything to fix it

[max von]

squats are tough for me to do to cause i blew out my acl on squats

max von

[wedgylx]

My knees are all screwed up from hockey. Sucks on leg day

[max von]

wedglyx

i know that sucks when you knees are shot

max von

[italionstallionl]

it sucks real bad because our knees are bad at a young age, so when we get to be 40 or 50 they are goning to be destroyed

[max von]

tell me about it mine gives out all the time on me and ive had surgery on it once already dont want to do that again not at this age anyways. I used to love to jog but cant do that anymore either but thats okay bike is starting to catch on


max von

[wedgylx]

it sucks real bad because our knees are bad at a young age, so when we get to be 40 or 50 they are goning to be destroyed

Thats one reason i go light on legs. I can definately feel my knees the day after squats. I'm just hoping with the medical field improving at this rate we wont be in too much trouble.

You should hear my knees when i bend to a 90 degree angle...sounds like popcorn in the microwave.

[italionstallionl]

lol, deja vu wed, mine pop and crack like nothing else. the worst thing is that they grind really bad, if you were to put your hand over my knee cap you would feel it grinding like crazy. it surely makes lifting tough

[dinoiii]

This thread has gotten heavy-laiden with many subtopics, but I think a couple threads would be very interesting to start discussion on from what you guys have spoke of.


(1) Rest Periods -- i.e. - time off from the gym for each bodypart (in a word ... to answer what USF_ said NO...I would not train calves "extra" per se) we really ought to start up a thread on this...I did a Kinesiology project in my pre med studies on this very topic. I will dig up the info and put it to use on here in a thread or something - got many things to take care of first though so perhaps you guys can get the ball rolling on frequency of training each muscle group and I'll chime in at a later time.

(2) What are good recuperation training protocols after injuries - i.e.- torn ACL, slipped disk, etc...


Maybe you guys are interested...the training forum needs a little spicing up. We need to make this the one stop place for all info that is good in the bb industry.

[max von]

Dinoiii

that is a good point and it has gotten kinda heavy as far training goes i do 2 days on 1off 2on 2off. as far as time off for acl it took me a year before my my knee was ready for serious working out

max von

[dinoiii]

Sounds like you would be the perfect person to start a Rehabilitation thread max...tell us what it was like and how you ended up coping with your injury.


its just an idea.

[max von]

dinoiii

that sounds like a good idea i will do that dinoiii. my injury occured 3 years ago so give me a little time to get what i wont to say then i will start one good idea

max von

[wedgylx]

Maybe I will chime in when you start the thread about how i recuperated from my broken collarbone and injured neck

[max von]

Wedglyx

i just finished it under the training section go ahead and add to it

max von

[italionstallionl]

lol wed, i broke my collar bone and dislocated my shoulder a few years back

[wedgylx]

lol wed, i broke my collar bone and dislocated my shoulder a few years back

Dude is that the most painful thing or what? I broke my collarbone and strained all the muscles in my neck...the scalenes and the sternocledomastoid and my trap.

Part of my pain problem was that my mother refused to let me get prescription pain killers, I think thats the closest i ever came to killing her.

[italionstallionl]

yeah, i can understand that. that would have to be the worst injury i have every had-pain wise, and let me tell you, ive had my fare share. i did it while playing football. our team was in a national tournament in florida and i was qb for our, the second play of the first game in florida i dropped back to pass, got blind sided and driven into the ground. and the ground is where i stayed. i got up...eventually, went to the sidelines, somehow got my shoulder pads off and was in excrutiating pain. of course the coach wanted me to go back in, he had me put my shoulder pads back on (if you never had this injury raising your arm hurts the most) by then i was about to die. the funny thing is the coach was my dad. u then went to the hospital and the rest is history.