Help with cycle?

[rn.method]

I am starting a cycle of D-bol and Deca for 8 weeks as follows:

week 1: 15mg D-bol 200mg Deca
week 2: 20mg D-bol 200mg Deca
week 3: 25mg D-bol 200mg Deca
week 4: 30mg D-bol 200mg Deca
week 5: 30mg D-bol 300mg Deca
week 6: 35mg D-bol 300mg Deca
week 7: 25mg D-bol 200mg Deca
week 8: 20mg D-bol 200mg Deca

I am taking weekends off of the D-bol so only taking Mon.-Fri.and the Deca on Mon. only.

Is this o.k. and what should I follow with. I thought maybe doing a 6 week cycle of Superdrol along with Creatine Ethyl Ester and BSN Nitrix CEM3 followed by a 4 week cycle of Rebound XT.

I've done 2 cycles of Deca alone in the past year and a half with no real routine but this time I want to do it right. Any feedback would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[shuttaLCD]

In my opnion you would better benefit off of something that looks like this..

Week1:300mg Deca
Week2:300mg Deca
Week3:300mg Deca
Weeks 4-10:20mg D-bol e/d - 300mg Deca

you will need

100 tabs of Methandienone (Dianabol)
10ml vial Deca 300mg/ml


This to me is a great Beginner Stack

-Shutta

[rn.method]

Thanks for the advice Shutta. Should I follow with an anti-astrogen or something or could I follow with what I posted earlier?

[shuttaLCD]

i think haveing a SERM would be a good idea...

Test booster wouldnt be bad either..

You will definately need some kinda of PCT.. Do some research and post it up.. that was we all can help you out..

-Shutta

[TheKoos]

Why no Test?

I think by week 6 you won't be able to find your testicles and you will want to use Playboy for starting fires not reading enjoyment.

[EDAWG146]

Your looking at major problems with a certain "peter" doing that stack. I don't care how old you are, "Big Problems".

[rn.method]

Should I Use A T-booster?

[shuttaLCD]

No. Not a test booster during cycle... There wont be any natty test to boost. He is suggesting Test. injec... your call..


-Shutta

[UltimateFighter]

why are you doing 8 weeks?

why are you taking weekends off.. you are recovering still on the weeknds so you still benefit from it.....

but my main question is the first.

[UltimateFighter]

i just read the rest. it shows that he hasnt done his homework.

he just woke up one morning and thought "! hmmmmm... today i'll do an 8 week cycle of deca!"

[UltimateFighter]

oh and last thing....

for pct i recommend a new liver

[rn.method]

I replaced the Deca with EQ. Something less harsh.

[rn.method]

UF,
I was looking for constructive critisicm. Not to be made fun of. No, I'm not that knowledgable of AAS. That is why I came here. I've been trainig for about 4 years and my diet is almost perfect, but have seen no changes in last year. Was looking for a boost. Now I'm just looking for help on how to use responsibly. So chill man.

[UltimateFighter]

im always chill mr method

but lkets go back a second before AAS. you said you made no gains last year?

i would like you to post up your diet and how you train. believe me. what you need isnt gear. but if you wish to take that path and carry on training the way you are thjen still you wont make the utmost gains from your cycle.

before deciding to begin a cycle first you must be knowledgeable about what you wish to take. and why you wish to take the two together. deca is not a harash drug. dianabol is a very harsh drug with very harsh sides. its a good mas builder but if yo uarent knowledgeable i wouldnt even recommend this for a first cycle

constructive is better than destructive. very true


i recommend a ph. superdrol is great and so is pheraplex and they arent harsh at all. hardly any sides either.

but post your diet and training and ill show you why you arent making any gains. id also like your stats e.g. age, body fat percentage, if you have any conditions such as diabeties, anyy previous usage of AAS including pH and anything else you may feel is halting gains. because as humans..every session is productive or should be anyway and we can adapt faster than people think. if doing things correctly.

:)

[Clickster]

UF,
I was looking for constructive critisicm. Not to be made fun of. No, I'm not that knowledgable of AAS. That is why I came here. I've been trainig for about 4 years and my diet is almost perfect, but have seen no changes in last year. Was looking for a boost. Now I'm just looking for help on how to use responsibly. So chill man.

He always comes across that way, he is just very blunt. :)

UF has good intentions I believe. ;-)

[rn.method]

age: 25
weight: 197lbs.
height: 5'9"
bf%: +-12%(hasn't been measuered since Nov.)

typical day:
wake@5:30a.m. protein shake (on whey)
6:00 - GNC vitamin and a "body for life" mrp bar out the door and o.j.
6:30 - @ work
8:00 - protien shake
9:00 - beef patty, vege., some kind of fruit (apple, banana, grapes usually), rice cake
11:00 - protein shake (sometimes)
12:15 - Grilled chicken breast, vege., long grain brown rice or potato
2:00 - protien shake
3:00 - beef patty or can of tuna with fruit and rice cake( sometimes i'm too busy to eat now)
5:00 - off work
6:30 - hamburger or chicken breast with mixed vege. and potato
8:00 - workout 70-90mins
10:00 - bed usually

My goal has been to pack on mass since Oct. In August I weighed 172lbs @ 9% bf. I know I said I haven't seen much gains but maybe it is better stated gains like I want. i guess i'm a little impatient. I know I could use some more understanding of all aspects of training in general but with all the information out there and what everyones says it is hard to decide what to go with.

I would like to be 200lbs rock hard solid, maybe 7% bf.

A friend said the D-bol would be good for mass along with EQ. for extra kick. He actually said to use 30-50mg of D-bol a day but that seemed a little much for me. I know the sides are rougher with orals but Iplanned on taking a liver aid and the reason for taking the weekends off was to give my body a break. I know my diet could also use some help but one person says this and another that. i don't know!?

The reason I workout so late is becouse my partner is my brother-in-law who just started working out and he wanted a partner as did I. He has a 2yr old and he goes to bed at 8 so thats the earliest he was able to. I was working out at 5:30 when I got off work that just recently changed. I work 50-60 hrs a week 6:30-5:00 and some on Sat.

This is the best I could come up with, in conjustion with my schedule.

By the way UF, I've read your logs and seen your myspace and am very impressed! You truly do seem to have done your homework. I'm envious. I would greatly appreciate your help. I understand your up-front, no bullshit way of thinking and am very mush the same. It's not everyday you meet someone like that. Forgive me for misinterpreting you.

Thanks,
thE mEthOd

[Hoplite_Warrior]

4 protein shakes during the day? how come you arent taking any post workout or anything before you go to bed when you need it most.

i would look into that if i were you.

[rn.method]

oh yeah! sorry. after workout a double scoop shake. 4 shakes is alittle exaggerated more like 2-3. mainly in the morning. my metabolism seems to be faster in the moorning. as the day goes on it seems to take longer and longer to digest if that makes sense?

[rn.method]

another thing i failed to mention is that my energy level has been low and since my work involves me being on my feet all day except for lunch and is vary active i started taking energy pills. i couldn't find straight caffeine so i opted for the mildest thermogenic i could find...Ripped Fuel. I take one @ 9:00 and one @ 4:00 seems to do the trick. Probably not good for building mass but i don't know what else to do.

[UltimateFighter]

No forgiving necessary. I know that i come acrooss a a certain way but i dont like to waste my time.

aahhh. the first problem is the fact that time is a nice thing t ohave. currently i have it since all im doing is training and so on and i have a fight in may.

Anyway. these are changes i would make (bare in mind we all have time to do the following. its just a case of how badly would you like results and how fast do you want them? AS ive said the best slogan in the world is JUST DO IT. ;)

6:00 - oatmeal/good cereal that is mostly carbs + protein shake/turkey or chicken sandwich and BIG glass of OJ. you have low bf so thats cool.
6:30 - @ work...(call in sick sometimes... or when youve run out..call in dead!)
8:00 - protien shake (change to WEIGHT gainer... protein is better with carbs for nutrient uptake. ill give you finer points about insulin and why you need it) if you are on mysapce message me there.
9:00 - dont eat at 9. just have a glass of water.
11:00 - now here you need to eat some more complex carbs. you said you find your energy low so you need more energy. the brains and body's only fuel is glucose (then ATP).
12:15 - (have this meal at 11 if you can)Grilled chicken breast, vege., long grain brown rice or potato
2:00 - glass of water again. remember water is the medium in which all chemical reactions occur. more water = higher blood volume. youll obviously piss out what you dont need. and water is also the body's method of transporting nutrients (blood plasma) and lubrication (synovial fluid) and carrier for waste (urine)
3:00 - can of tuna with fruit and rice cake( sometimes i'm too busy to eat now) you are NEVER too busy to eat. shove it in a blender if you need to. tin can and all.
5:00 - off work - some more water... pee before you get in car
6:30 - hamburger or chicken breast with mixed vege. and potato
7.00. 200-400mg of caffeine. i think after a long day you need the boost. but its ok. youll be working hard
7.30 - creatine and arginine if you have it. if not no worries
7.50 - 30g HIGH GLYCEMIC CARBS
8:00 - workout 70-90mins - 40g dextrose/glucose/sucrose and BCAAs... if you cant get bcaas in powder (bulk) then just have some protein at the 10 mins pre workout mark
9.30 - 40g lquid carbs - 15g protein. vit c tab, vit e magnesium.
11pm. weight gainer shake(cytogainer is perfect for what you need) and bed time.

for a workout that is best suited for your body type and low bodyfat and results you want..... go to reviews and follow tran's log closley. you will find A LOT of compiled advice there. especially on stretching. much more to come though. ;)

the human body is an amazing thing. and it adapts faster than you think. some people work too much (in the gym) and not hard enough. but you will... 3 times a week full body workouts. tues and thurs, sat and sun you dont workout.

[UltimateFighter]

caffeine wont affect mas building. over training will ;)

how are you training? post that up. and ill leave you with this thought too

"It;s not about how much work the muscle can do
but how little it takes to stimulate growth.....
and its less than you think!"

[rn.method]

thank you so much for the advice.

Just a few questions before i move on to my training routine.

1.How can i get the 40g of dextrose/glucose/sucrose?
2.What is a good source for the 40g of liquid carbs?
3.what is the purpose of vitamin c?
4.what is the prupose for vitamin e magnesium?
5.until i get weight gainer is the protien o.k.?

Again, thank you for your time and effort.

[UltimateFighter]

1 and 2. gatorade bottles have 30g. but i recommend buyinhg dextrose in bulk. youll save about 600 bucks. instead of buying constant bottles of gatorade/powerade/

3. vit c is an antioxidant and weight training produces a lot of crap

4. same with these. they get rid of free radicals and i say ALA because it helps with recycling of vit c and e

5. yes but you gotta have some carbs with the protein. weight gainers have everything you need.

[rn.method]

o.k. last question on diet. what would be good for the 30g of high glycemic carbs 10 minutes before workout? How could I supplement SD or pheraplex and how can they help? Thanks.

Now on to my current training schedule.

Mon. - chest and shoulders
1.CHEST - i'll start with a 2 set warm-up on benchpress normally 1@135lbs. for 15reps and 2@225lbs for 5reps
then i'll do 3 sets on bench after that starting at 185lbs for 12reps then 205 for 10reps then 225 for 8reps
2.SHOULDERS - i'll start the same as before with a 2set warn-up with military press 1@95lbs for15reps 2@135lbs for 5reps
then 3 sets starting at 115lbs for 12reps then 125lbs for 10 and 135lbs for 8
1.CHEST - 3sets incline dumbell no warm-up
2.SHOULDERS - 3sets bent over laterals nowarm-up
1.CHEST - 2-3sets incline dumbell flys
2.SHOULDERS - 2-3sets of plate raises

Tues. - legs, abs
Wed. - off
Thurs. - back, tri, abs
Fri. - bi, abs, chest using hammer strength equipment etc.etc.etc.

For each muscle group I workout that night, I do 2 warm-up sets before first excercise. I do chest twice because, like most people i like to, and my goal in about 4 months is to compete locally in various bench competitions. My max. bench now is 330lbs, which is way up from 225lbs just about 5months ago where i was stuck at for about 2years.

UF, I know you are going to tell me all kinds of things I am doing wrong and I am open to all. I am very ready to change this format as you have already got me reconsidering my diet. I've read alot about these "negative" excercise routines. Is a full-body workout o.k. for mass? Some nights I feel are good, and others I feel I haven't done anything for 90min.

oh yeah, I dumped the D-bol and EQ thing. I believe I can achieve my goals without the use of harmful drugs thanks to you. Besides, I do this to be healthy not pollute my body.

Thanks again.

[UltimateFighter]

Mr method.

Thats way too much training.

what ill give you is this:

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2474&page=1

Here Mr trans is going through the method ive finished developing and look at the weights in the beggining. he';s been at it for about 2 weeks or so.

Read through from beggining to end. and then get back to this thread and tell me what you think.

:)

[Hoplite_Warrior]

Method,

Becareful bro. be cautious when taking advice, I beleive negatives everynow and then will probably help strengthen the hinges but in the long run with the program I beleive you will be on your way to destroying them. I also beleive this neglects several bodyparts.

Please read through UF's logs. Look at the arguments that were made by me, Notroious and others against this line of training. And then you must make up your mind.

Also, keep in mind Trans starting weight is only 140, so of course he is going to progress just by moving the Iron.

I am just asking you to read both sides, before you make your descision. Dont be lead astray just because you want help and are not sure the right way to go.
I will leave you with these two thoughts to ponder.

You should use both very carefully and only on occasion. - Arnold Schwarzenegger
( Arnold refering to negatives, Assisted and Forced. -Ask Arnold-2006)

use your best judgment when selecting what advice to follow and information to believe. Unfortunately, in this cyberspace age we live in, people can build false identities online and pretend to be someone they aren’t. Use caution when interacting with others online and remember they may not be who they claim to be. -Discount Anabolics Forum Sticky

[Hoplite_Warrior]

Also Method....

Keep in mind. UF's training requires you to use a training partner at all times since it is a program based on negatives.

So that means you are constatnly having to rely on someone else. Now, if they dont show up. The workout just goes out the window as demonstrated in trans log, where his partner went to go play with paintball and he was confined to only doing negatives on pushups and situps because he didnt want to abandon the program.

[Trans_Isomer]

Also Method....

Keep in mind. UF's training requires you to use a training partner at all times since it is a program based on negatives.

So that means you are constatnly having to rely on someone else. Now, if they dont show up. The workout just goes out the window as demonstrated in trans log, where his partner went to go play with paintball and he was confined to only doing negatives on pushups and situps because he didnt want to abandon the program.

Yep, for this type of training you do need a workout partner. Mine is there 99% of the time but the tournament he is going to is a real big deal.

[rn.method]

Hop,
Thanks for the info. I've been doing some research on the subject of negatives and I do see an improvement in many of the cases. But as you have said, many people agree that in the long term negatives can damage joints and cause many problems. My current regime seems to be doing fine. I will probably start a "negatives/full-body" program in about 2-3months to get toned and lose bodyfat, short-term ofcourse. Most people I know that are doing full-body workouts are pretty slim and I am not looking to be slim but big and tone. Also I believe that if you worka muscle group the way you should to promote the most growth, you will exhaust that muscle to the point that it can take no less than 4-6days to fully recover.

Don't get me wrong UF, I do appreciate all the help and advice but I'm not sure that negatives are right for me. Your advice on nutrition is bar-none and it has helped me greatly. I will follow your advice in that respect.

Thanks to all for the advice and input.

Anymore is still appreciated.

[Hoplite_Warrior]

Also I believe that if you worka muscle group the way you should to promote the most growth, you will exhaust that muscle to the point that it can take no less than 4-6days to fully recover.

Smart move man.

Yep, how can the muscle grow bigger if you arent letting it recover and hitting it over and over again. I think if you get your diet nailed down, you will see great results on a traditional bodybuilding split, and you can vary exercises and reps in different workouts as i beleive varitey is the key to sucess in bodybuilding.

Plus you wont have to rely on a partner determining if you workout or not, and it will also be alot less boring because you will have variety in your workouts instead of doing the same thing over and over again

[Dizzle1]

Uf where you fighting . school yard w/ some 5th grader, lol, ok lol again. Really where are you fighting?

No forgiving necessary. I know that i come acrooss a a certain way but i dont like to waste my time.

aahhh. the first problem is the fact that time is a nice thing t ohave. currently i have it since all im doing is training and so on and i have a fight in may.

Anyway. these are changes i would make (bare in mind we all have time to do the following. its just a case of how badly would you like results and how fast do you want them? AS ive said the best slogan in the world is JUST DO IT. ;)

6:00 - oatmeal/good cereal that is mostly carbs + protein shake/turkey or chicken sandwich and BIG glass of OJ. you have low bf so thats cool.
6:30 - @ work...(call in sick sometimes... or when youve run out..call in dead!)
8:00 - protien shake (change to WEIGHT gainer... protein is better with carbs for nutrient uptake. ill give you finer points about insulin and why you need it) if you are on mysapce message me there.
9:00 - dont eat at 9. just have a glass of water.
11:00 - now here you need to eat some more complex carbs. you said you find your energy low so you need more energy. the brains and body's only fuel is glucose (then ATP).
12:15 - (have this meal at 11 if you can)Grilled chicken breast, vege., long grain brown rice or potato
2:00 - glass of water again. remember water is the medium in which all chemical reactions occur. more water = higher blood volume. youll obviously piss out what you dont need. and water is also the body's method of transporting nutrients (blood plasma) and lubrication (synovial fluid) and carrier for waste (urine)
3:00 - can of tuna with fruit and rice cake( sometimes i'm too busy to eat now) you are NEVER too busy to eat. shove it in a blender if you need to. tin can and all.
5:00 - off work - some more water... pee before you get in car
6:30 - hamburger or chicken breast with mixed vege. and potato
7.00. 200-400mg of caffeine. i think after a long day you need the boost. but its ok. youll be working hard
7.30 - creatine and arginine if you have it. if not no worries
7.50 - 30g HIGH GLYCEMIC CARBS
8:00 - workout 70-90mins - 40g dextrose/glucose/sucrose and BCAAs... if you cant get bcaas in powder (bulk) then just have some protein at the 10 mins pre workout mark
9.30 - 40g lquid carbs - 15g protein. vit c tab, vit e magnesium.
11pm. weight gainer shake(cytogainer is perfect for what you need) and bed time.

for a workout that is best suited for your body type and low bodyfat and results you want..... go to reviews and follow tran's log closley. you will find A LOT of compiled advice there. especially on stretching. much more to come though. ;)

the human body is an amazing thing. and it adapts faster than you think. some people work too much (in the gym) and not hard enough. but you will... 3 times a week full body workouts. tues and thurs, sat and sun you dont workout.

[UltimateFighter]

You may do as you wish

if hoplite knew his basic principles hed know that you need OVERLOAD. not fatigue.

the whole ponit of training is to make your bod ATTEMPT to do more than it can.. not more work but more weight. if you can lift it it will bring minimal adaptation

negatives tstrengthen joints. hence why used in physiotherapuetic treatments. and doing a negative is the same as doing a positive but if you load more weight.,.... you ARE doing what hoplite is telling to do but he doenst realise its more effective.

a negtaive doesnt mean going down.

the wieght brings pushed you down hence why we use weights.

its amazing how logic eludes some minds completely - einstien

[UltimateFighter]

i also coudnt train for an entire year since i was stuck in college. i tried the morning thing but its a no go since i need a hell of a lot of energy

there is no such thing as a negtive. there is no such thing as a positive.

just contraction.
i use more weight and try but fail but hence every time i an fail with a larger weights

pull ups are now with 110 lbs :D
a month ago i was doing them with 70lbs.

next time ill try 121lbs. :D

negatives damage joints is such an ignorant statement to make. the scientific gods look down and laugh.

[Hoplite_Warrior]

UF

It is now quite obvious what you have been attempting to do here. As soon as someone new comes asking for guidance and help, you try to convince them of your workout routine. You have repeatedly said over and over again that this method is the absolute best way to train and the only way one should train.

You not willing to concede that this workout has flaws just shows what lengths you will go to, to hide the truth. I am sure you are counting on selling alot of your books and revolutionizing the fitness world but it wont happen. People will see through this.

Negatives are recommended to be done on occasion for a reason. They shouldnt be done in everyworkout for life. You wont to argue that this program isnt damaging in the long run, while i disagree.

You saying my statements are ignorant, is funny because you are the one saying that it is possible for someone to gain 50 pounds of muscle naturally in a year doing your program. As Notorious pointed out in his post, -naturally consistently replicating gains of 50lbs per year is impossible. You are deliberately misleading people UF. You yourself have not been on a natural program, thus you have flawed the results of your crazy experiment, and claim that this can happen.

Then there is Trans who is acting as guinea pig for you. His starting weight is 140 pounds. I am quite positive he will see results on the program, I never said one wouldnt. What I have been saying is this is not the best program to end all programs as you have called it, and I am saying it has flaws which you refuse to admit.

Now.

Trans starting out at 140 is another blow to the experiment, sure he is gonna make gains, he has got no where to go but up. You yourself started from a very light weight, but as I have pointed out, you fowled up your own experiment by using ph's and thus you cannot claim natural gains of 50 pounds per year on the program.

As far as everybody else looking into doing the program long term, read both sides. Don't be taken in by big promises. Read the arguments against UF's line of training, look into the fact that you arent adequately working forearms,calves,back, rear delts. The two subjects that have been presented to you are very lean and small in terms of muscle size. Leaness is part of it, but size is missing from the equation, and one subject has been using ph's.

Take a long look at the pros and cons before decideing to get on this program long term.

[rn.method]

This seems to be a touchy subject for both of you. Both of you have valid points, but Hop I think is more on key.

"The most credible explanation I've heard is that it's a defense mechanism of the body. I mean, if it was the other way around we'd be in trouble. We'd be able to pick up a huge rock and hold it above our heads, but once we're there we realize that we're too weak to hold it there. Ouch.

Seriously though, it's mostly common sense. It's like a safety buffer to ensure that we can't pick up something we can't handle, and in a worst-case scenario we always have the power to give the item a controlled descent back down.

This is the key to WHY negative training works! And this is also why you have to be both disciplined and experienced to do it safely. If you focus on making the most of the negatives, as in having a partner spot you and assist you in pressing the weight down to make it harder, you trick your body.

Simply put, you override the safety by filling the buffer with extra weight, thereby forcing your muscles to work harder than elsewise possible. The downside of this is exactly that - you override the safety limit! You must be VERY sure of what you're doing, and if you have previous joint problems in the area - forget it.

However, if you're able to successfully pull it off you can reap the rewards of increased muscle mass. Take note though, that this kind of training is not for everyone, nor can be done for weeks on end as it is very taxing on your body. Avoid overtraining - mix ordinary workouts with negatives ... And why not try alternating with other ways of raising intensity?

Again:

"Take note though, that this kind of training is not for everyone, nor can be done for weeks on end as it is very taxing on your body. Avoid overtraining - mix ordinary workouts with negatives ... And why not try alternating with other ways of raising intensity?

But once again: Beware of overtraining!"

-That was taken from an article in *****************-

-This one from Joe muscle.com-

"Performing negative repetitions can provide enormous growth possibilities provided it is done right. The biggest problem associated with doing negatives is the fact that people do too much. 1-2 sets maximum is all you need, and sometimes that is even too much. They are so damaging in fact to muscle cells that it often can double the time it takes for an individual to heal from a particular workout. With this in mind it's important to take extra care when training in this fashion.

Why are negatives so damaging anyways? Well, it all comes down to the way your muscle cells work. A muscle cell follows what's known as the all or none principle. Basically what this proclaims is that when a cell contracts it does so with 100% of force. Your body then simply fires the appropriate amount of cells for the desired movement.

With this in mind, we now can see what happens when a muscle is subjected to the stress of a negative repetition. You basically have a cell that is contracting as hard as it can. When you load weight on the bar that is greater than what the cell can contract against the cell gives. Simply put, it's torn apart. This causes tiny tears within the muscle fiber itself which in turn stimulates growth.

People often wonder why they are so sore after negative training. The fact that it's actually tearing the muscle apart and causing tiny tears is what causes this deep soreness. It damages the nervous system along with the individual muscle cells. You can quickly see how overtraining can rapidly set in - there's only so much a muscle can take before it's torn apart beyond repair.

So what's a person to do - how much is needed to stimulate maximum muscle growth? With everyone's metabolisms and body systems different, it's hard to say. My suggestion is this - start at one and work your way up. If you've never done negatives before chances are you're going to get sore with minimum reps. Remember, they key is to stimulate muscle growth, not bombard a muscle into submission. It defeats the purpose."

Again:

"You can quickly see how overtraining can rapidly set in - there's only so much a muscle can take before it's torn apart beyond repair."

I could go on and on with a number of examples of why this type of training works short-term and why it doesn't long-term. Negatives are good only for the advanced and only for a short-term routine. It is very easy to overtrain using negatives. Especially if done like UF says to, "full-body 3xwk".

Now UF, I'm not totally dissing you bro but c'mon. Negatives are o.k. but not for everyone. Why do you insist that it is the only and best way to train? Where do you get your facts about long-term benefits and long-term strengthened joints?

P.S.

Be nice.

[Hoplite_Warrior]

Excellent post! Excellent points!

its that exactly. No one is saying there is no benefit to doing negatives. The argument being made by us is the fact that a program based on negatives in the long term and only doing negatives is detrimental and only setting you up for failure.

I took these quotes from some of the writers of articles over at the "big forum". I am sure you guys know where I am talking about.

"Having said this, I do not devote entire workouts to eccentric training... definitely not. I consider this a complete waste of time when it comes to bodybuilding.-Bryan Locke (Eccentric Training)"

"Do remember to not go overboard with pure negs as they stress everything to the max .I always constantly rotate my intensity methods from week to week. Your body can adapt to anything so remember to change things up.-Seth Pauley (Rip Yourself a new one)"

"Simply put, you override the safety by filling the buffer with extra weight, thereby forcing your muscles to work harder than elsewise possible. The downside of this is exactly that - you override the safety limit! You must be VERY sure of what you're doing, and if you have previous joint problems in the area - forget it.

-Matt Danielson"

UF

The time has come for you to concede that you have been wrong, and putting trainees on your long term program is detrimental to them. You owe it to them. Even the guys who write these articles and are "pro" negative, warn about using them all the time, like you recommend.

Hopefully people will delve into this matter. Do research and not just take my word for it.

Like I have said before, I beleive negatives could serve a valuable role in ones training and should be included to mix things up, and keep yourself growing. But doing them for every single exercise, in every single workout, for every single rep, is detrimental and needs to be stopped.

[UltimateFighter]

Wow

thats taken to extreme. people do this. hence why people think fat is bad and so on and so on. im bringing out my guide soon.

from there youll see

and he said it there. you must be sure of what you are doing. but i profess that even they do not understand. and the whole point of training sesions is going to the max. thats how you gain safley and faster. max and overload. but not with ridicuoloud weight. merely with 5lbs/11lbs heavier than you are lifting on your own. and sometimes more for the last set ending with a drop set.

"Simply put, you override the safety by filling the buffer with extra weight, thereby forcing your muscles to work harder than elsewise possible. The downside of this is exactly that - you override the safety limit! You must be VERY sure of what you're doing, and if you have previous joint problems in the area

you dont over-ride anything at all. you work your muscles to your all but obviously you fail but controlled. you arre pushing up but the wieght brings you down. say with bench press.. you push up.. but the bar comes down. = microtrauma. stretch under contraction. the saftey limit would be what the joints cant even take but you can handle this. you are stronger on the way down than way up. his way you can get multiple sets with only one set. well for the work you get in it anyway. the magic happens on the way down. not the way up.


ill carry this on and by end of this year..... :D

im already here


but mr hoplite. you forget that i am also testing too. ill see the long term effects soon. ill release my guide soon.

the world is not flat :)

[UltimateFighter]

and the body doesnt have a defense mehcnaism as such for that

your body is stuck on survival . it doesnt WANT to devote lal it has because it hasnt bene there before. this is why your body has to be forced past what it usually does....SAFLEY and thats what we do. safely. spotted and not TOO quick.

"The most credible explanation I've heard is that it's a defense mechanism of the body. I mean, if it was the other way around we'd be in trouble. We'd be able to pick up a huge rock and hold it above our heads, but once we're there we realize that we're too weak to hold it there. Ouch.

EXACTLY. but we begin from the holding above head position..then when it is lowered we resist it. slowly to stretch. and the reason we cant do that is because muscles are relaxed and of course a muscles is weaker in its stretched position.

and the saftey you guys are talking about are golgi tendons.. when it senses that we cant handle it, the muscle is made to relax. Of course this info is in all physiology texts. if one does their own reading one gets the info they need.

to avoid over training, a weight trainer needs to pay attention to his body and take a week break every 2 months id say. from experience and from what its causing. but its worth it. unless you want it to take a lot more money and time.


and here you have it :D

"Performing negative repetitions can provide enormous growth possibilities provided it is done right. The biggest problem associated with doing negatives is the fact that people do too much. 1-2 sets maximum is all you need, and sometimes that is even too much. They are so damaging in fact to muscle cells that it often can double the time it takes for an individual to heal from a particular workout. With this in mind it's important to take extra care when training in this fashion.

Mr hoplite. you are too selective. you select possible bad points. you are like the media mr hoplite. LOL!

oh and this is a bunch of crap

People often wonder why they are so sore after negative training. The fact that it's actually tearing the muscle apart and causing tiny tears is what causes this deep soreness. It damages the nervous system along with the individual muscle cells. You can quickly see how overtraining can rapidly set in - there's only so much a muscle can take before it's torn apart beyond repair.

you dont damage the nerous system. you dont destroy nerves. and it doesnt cause deep sorness in that fashion. it actually causes less than training conventional. especially if you do your nutrition right using nutrient timing. and torn beyond repair? LOL! thats called a strain but we arent really taking it that far. or ruptiring the muscle either.

[UltimateFighter]

but as for all else. i stand to gain nothing by informing.

i shalnt do so anymore.

i have a life to attend to.

[Hoplite_Warrior]

keep arguing your point.

if people are convinced that this is the only training method and best training method to follow so be it.

People should spend time researching this themselves and not take either of our word as fact. i
dont beleive in it and many many other experts wouldnt either but you do. More power to you, if you like the program full speed ahead.

People looking to get on it though need to put in research by themselves and not take eithers word for it.

[dinoiii]

interesting thread...

I do NOT think you can ONLY perform negatives with a training partner...in fact, I am still waiting on a shirt for appropriate showing of how this is NOT the case alongside cheat tactics, but I digress....

I am simply biding time here - will chime in as I see this thread unfold more.

Great comments on all sides.

[rn.method]

I'm very impressed at how this thread has progressed. My first post was me starting a D-bol/Deca cycle.... Well I've dumped the gear and changed my ideas about nutrition, now we're on the subject of negatives and they're overall effectiveness.

Mr. Dinoii, I have found many articles and studies on doing negatives with out a partner and it IS possible. I've went to the library and the bookstore, and googled it. This is one example:

http://www.fitstep.com/Misc/Newsletter-archives/issue15.htm

Now, as I've said before, implementing negatives in your training routine can have great benefits, but only for the short-term and should not be all of your training routine. I believe that even going 2 months with a wk off @ full-body 3xwk is too much. From what I've read in the past few days, so do most others, even those that advocate negative training. As I have never tried training with negatives myself I cannot speak of this personally, but in the future maybe I can.

With that said I do appreciate all the feedback I too look forward to see where this continues to go.

Thanks.

[Trans_Isomer]

Method, Dinoiii never said training with negatives with a partner is not possible, just stating that you can do them without a partner (Of course not a super amount of weight).

A lot of people's training knowlegde is learned from reading too many magazines, and not knowing the anatomy and phsysiology of the body. The body is an amazing adaptive machine. Remember what the Overload Principle states.

[rn.method]

Yes, I know. I was just giving Dinoii info on how to train negatives without partner.

Facts, not just statements.

[rn.method]

By the way, I agree. Too much info is taken from magazines and unstable sources. People like you and me and UF etc. etc. write these articles. Just because you have the gift of gab and can sell sunglasses to the blind, that shouldn't be confused with genius. You can hurt someone that way.

[UltimateFighter]

I GIVE eyes to the blind. New eyes. Their old ones do not see so thats what i do.


I would not give someone wrong advices like arnold.
LOL

mr method. you got a lot of good info yourself in your own post. use yourself to think about it. and check back to trans' log. look at his last log day. and youll see the importance of nutrition and WHY you can recover from more damaging exercises.

the conventional ignorant way takes a long time to recover from because you train too much and too many prostoglandins are released and this inhibits optimal recovery.

[Hoplite_Warrior]

I GIVE eyes to the blind. New eyes. Their old ones do not see so thats what i do.

Yep, according to you everyone is ignorant and "blind" because they dont train like you and buy into your method. Everyone except you and Trans.

you have still yet to address the fact this routine is flawed.

I would not give someone wrong advices like arnold.
LOL

First of all you arent qualified to give advice to be taken seriously, secondly seeing as how just about every serious fitness expert would disagree with your method of only using negative workouts for life gives more reason for people not to listen to you.
And Third, put together a resume like Arnold that includes a life devoted to fitness and Olympia wins, and mabey, just mabey, people will take your advice more seriously.

mr method. you got a lot of good info yourself in your own post. use yourself to think about it. and check back to trans' log. look at his last log day. and youll see the importance of nutrition and WHY you can recover from more damaging exercises.

the conventional ignorant way takes a long time to recover from because you train too much and too many prostoglandins are released and this inhibits optimal recovery.

There you go again. Everyone is ignorant but you and your disciple Trans.
Too bad for you millions of people have had enormous sucess using traditional methods, myself included.

You have yet to back up your statements of putting on 50 pounds per year naturally with your program. You have proved nothing, and will continue to prove nothing as long as you present us with test subjects with beginner weight, and can expect to make beginner gains with good diet and supplementation.

[Trans_Isomer]

Hop,
I do not claim to know the only way that works, so please dont spread false info. Other training programs out there work good, some better.

And UF is a Sports Therapist, and hes not qualified according to you? What are your qualifications?

[Hoplite_Warrior]

Trans who is spreading false info?.

I didnt say you beleived it was the only way, I said UF has stated on numerous occasions this is the best and only way to train, he claims all other methods are flawed and inferior to this one.
I have said you are following him and are one of his biggest defenders which you are.

How do you know he is a Sports Therapist? I can come on here and say I am the emperor of Japan but that doesnt mean its true. So what if he is? Does that mean he cant be wrong and that he is promoting a method that is potentially dangerous and inadequate in the long run.
He isnt right. Why do you think his word is law?

I myself am a certified fitness trainer but more importantly have training experience in the gym and a love for the iron game. The physique doesnt lie.

alot of people who think they are superior keep their noses stuck in the books but their asses out of the gym. Mabey if they got some real experience they would learn a thing or two.

He is in the minority, even the pro negative training crowd is against using them all the time and using them for life. So he shouldnt get his feelings hurt when people disagree with him or dont want to trust this method

[Trans_Isomer]

[Yep, according to you everyone is ignorant and "blind" because they dont train like you and buy into your method. Everyone except you and Trans.

Here ^^ you imply it. Just because you flat out didnt say it doesnt mean you didnt suggest it.

And how do I know UF is a Sports Therapist? Well I havent ever met him in person so I will never 100% know. But that goes the same for you, how do we know you are a certified trainer?

And who is keeping their noses in the books and staying out of the gym?? Some more false info?

And because he is in the minority he is wrong? And people dont "trust" his method? Trust has nothing to do with this. It either WORKS or DOESNT WORK

More and more your post only resemble some personal grudge against me and UF.

[Hoplite_Warrior]

Well since you are following his method and no one else at DA is, I guess that means you are in the superior group according to UF, whats so hard to understand about that.

How did that imply your opinion Trans???? It only implied UF's opinion which he has openly stated by calling everyone else BLIND and IGNORANT because we use more traditional proven to work methods.

Secondly, You keep trying to bring up a personal grudge. You apparently dont want this method being challenged by anyone, because whenever I do you want to bring it up as a personal grudge. Nope. Sorry. Doesnt work that way,

The grudge I have is with UF refusing to admit this program has flaws, and his continuation of calling everyone else ignorant and blind for not accepting his method as the greatest of all time as FACT.

[Trans_Isomer]

Secondly, You keep trying to bring up a personal grudge. You apparently dont want this method being challenged by anyone, because whenever I do you want to bring it up as a personal grudge. Nope. Sorry. Doesnt work that way

Nope, I just dont like false info, name calling, and the like. Your the only one that seems to do it. You shouldnt have to use those things to get your point across if its a good one. Debate is good, but when you name call and the like it starts getting old.

In the end, what matters the most is if the training provides results and progress.

[Hoplite_Warrior]

Nope, I just dont like false info, name calling, and the like. Your the only one that seems to do it. You shouldnt have to use those things to get your point across if its a good one. Debate is good, but when you name call and the like it starts getting old.

In the end, what matters the most is if the training provides results and progress.

But it is OK when UF labels everybody else as BLIND or their training methods IGNORANT.

And who did I call names just now?

Quit being so damn sensitive is the advice i will give to you. If people dont want a method to be challenged they shouldnt go around preaching it as fact and as the BEST program of all time.

When he can back up gains of 50 pounds of muscle naturally in a year as he has claimed before, then fine. But he has yet to prove that. And he is yet to prove this training method is and will be superior in the long term. All he can do is theorize and bash more traditional methods, that are proven to work.

[UNCfan1]

I have been reading alot on this battle between Hoplite and trans/UF, very very interesting, one of the last things I read was that UF claiming to be able to put on 50 a year naturally, that is so impossible, plus by looking at his Stash log, what is so natural about Superdrol and other PH, even with all of that stuff putting on that much weight is impossible, pro bb's talk about how hard it is to put on 10 or 15 pounds a year and they take the real stuff. After u begin training for the first time it is easy to put on alot muscle fast, but once u get past that point its harder to put on weight thats why people change their workouts, eat more and take performance enhancing drugs, You can throw in all of the science about the body you want too about how this method works or that one works but with the drugs anything and everything works. I am not knocking on him but that is a wild claim, can u imagaine how much u would have to eat a day for results like that you become fat before anything else I believe. I am more of a traditional lifter, but I was thinking about doing negs too but not like trans and uf do I am not sure that my joints could handle that. but you guys keep up the good work. keep on posting this fued is awesome. Oh by the way I don't think is was cool being called blind and stupid for training the traditional way.

[rn.method]

WOW!!

All this while i'm at work. hmmm. Well my point has been made and I stand behind what I have said about negs. I just want to ask a few questions:

UF, do you believe this (your routine) is the best and only way to train for life? and why?

Trans, do you? and why?

I agree that training with negs can have great potential benefits given the info I have gathered, but not long-term and defenitely cannot put on 50lbs of muscle! LOL

[Trans_Isomer]

This is UF's method of training, I take no claim in structuring it. I knew about negatives, but never did them like this before.

I am now doing them to see how well they work because he claimed fantastic results from them, and I wanted to see how well they worked for me. I have been training for a few years so I know when something is working greatly. Take a look at my log, weights are going up every session. With traditional training methods, do weights go up every session?

UF is a Sports Therapist, and I am majoring in Exercise Physiology. From all that I have learned, this method of training seems to really fill in a lot of gaps in traditional training. Remember what the Overload Principle states, that if the muscle is worked harder than it is normally accustomed, the muscle will respond by becoming stronger and more efficient. What does this translate to? Strength and growth.

If you can perform 8-10 reps of a set, did you really train the muscle harder than it is normally accustomed to? Your body only incorporates how many muscle fibers it sees as necessary to performing the task. If I curl a 3lb weight, did I incorporate as many muscle fibers as I would have if I had lifted a 50lb weight? No. This is where the arguement that this workout neglects certain bodyparts is lacking. Using a heavy enough weight, your body will incorporate all the available muscle fibers to aid in the lift of the weight.

Doing negatives, your body will use all available muscle fibers to perform the task. If I load the bar with 50lbs more than I can extend, but am able to resist the bar (negatives), my body will use all muscle fibers for the task. Could I do the positive movement myself? No. Can I do the negatives with more weight than my muscles are accustomed to? Yes What does overloading my muscles with more weight than they are accustomed to do? Refer to the Overload Principle.

I have never said there arent other good training programs out there. UF is not me.

This type of training is not for everyone. If you only like training programs made 50 years ago, this is not for you. If you have weak or fragile joints, tendons, etc, this training is not for you. If you cannot put 100% into every one of your workouts, this training is not for you. This type of training is very taxing on the body, you will be exhausted after your sets. This is where Proper Nutrient Timing, Proper warm ups and cool downs, and Proper Stretching come into play. By Properly doing these, you maximize your recovery potential.

[rn.method]

Excellent post!!

That was very informative and very to the point. Not like most of the hub-grub thats been going on. I agree, and can see the logic in that. When UF introduced me to this style of training a couple of days ago, he never said what you have said. He simply said to do this. Nothing about stretching or warmups and cooldowns.

One more question:What are the pros and cons of following a negative only training method long-term/short-term?

(I feel that this is sorta getting drove into the ground but I can't help but gather as much info as possible. I understand if you don't respond but please do.)

[UNCfan1]

Question, u guys say to put 100% into this style of training are u guys saying that the guys who use traditional training don't put 100% into their training, and that their nutrition is off and that timing is off? Are u saying the only way to hit all of the fibers in ur muscles is to do it ur way, you are telling me that by doing heavy supersets, dropsets and some negs won't hit all of those fibers, if u overload ur muscle with a weight that u hit 6-8 reps doing it with strict motion u can't hit all of those fibers, better yet if u do say 2 sets with a weight and then the 3rd set and 4th sets u do negs for the last 3 reps or forced reps u won't hit as many fibers as if u did both sets and all the reps for negs? Just a question not belittling you just asking so don't take offense to it.

[Trans_Isomer]

Question, u guys say to put 100% into this style of training are u guys saying that the guys who use traditional training don't put 100% into their training, and that their nutrition is off and that timing is off?

Please do not put words into anyones mouth. Please read what I say. I said you must put 100% into this training for it to give great results. Please point to where I said people who traditionally train dont?

[UNCfan1]

Sorry I wasn't trying to do that man. Just asking

[Trans_Isomer]

UNC, Remember what the Overload Principle states, that if the muscle is worked harder than it is normally accustomed, the muscle will respond by becoming stronger and more efficient.

Is your muscle being worked harder than it is accustomed to when you can lift it? No. If you can lift it, your muscles can perform the task, this is NOT more than they are accustomed to.

By loading the negatives with more than you can lift postive, you are making your muscles resist a weight load more than it is accustomed to.

Rn.method, I really dont see any long term problems unless you use bad form each session and/or dont maximize your recovery potential. Short term, you will get great gains in strength, check out my log.

I would comment more but it is almost twelve and I still have to study for an exam tommorow. More comments to come tommorow.

[UNCfan1]

My question was could u still all of the same muslce fibers by doing supersets, dropsets and a few negs instead of doing 2 sets of nonstop negs?
Ur method of training will hit both slow and fast twitch fibers? Isn't that the key maxing muslce growth, besides ur diet, u know what I mean.

[UltimateFighter]

the whole point isnt to exhaust a muscle. a muscle can only do as much work as it can.

to get to the strongest fibres that can handle the most weight, all the fibres below it will be working also. hence why there is little point in doing many warm up sets and many other sets.

it isnot about how much work the msucle can do
but how little it takes to stimulate growth.


just like eating

smaller and more frequent yeilds greater results.


effort must be placed in all aspects of life to achieve greater results.
anyone with logic woul drealise that this method IS the method of training everyone is using but poorly. arguments would cease and you would all be using this. in time the masses will realise. *shakes head*

anyway ill be back at the end of this year. and ill show you how its possible to gain a lot. and i will only do as trans is doing. same thing. :)

[UltimateFighter]

Also

this isnt my training method. its everyones. i thank everyonewho has put time/effort/dedication and their souls into the field of health and fitness.

its their pieces of the puzzle that let me put it all together.

and since you guys cant see the full picture. you dont see whats happening outside DA ;)

you guys cant see wnat im up to outside of this website. and great things willl happen :D

[UltimateFighter]

ALSO ONE MORE THING:

ive run one cycle in my life

and my entire stash is on sale! anyone that wants me can PM ME

i have a stash but it isnt worth using. because its possible without. and 50 is so imspossible. youve already failed then. your mind has conquered you.


Victore in mente, victore in compore
(Conquer the mind, conquer the body)

hence why so many fail before they begin.

[UltimateFighter]

Excellent post!!

That was very informative and very to the point. Not like most of the hub-grub thats been going on. I agree, and can see the logic in that. When UF introduced me to this style of training a couple of days ago, he never said what you have said. He simply said to do this. Nothing about stretching or warmups and cooldowns.

One more question:What are the pros and cons of following a negative only training method long-term/short-term?

(I feel that this is sorta getting drove into the ground but I can't help but gather as much info as possible. I understand if you don't respond but please do.)

if i gave you everything at once it would have been too much. you cant just give somoene everything. and people keep refering to negatives as the way down. but you are pushing up. you are pushing up but since the weight is lsightly more than yo ucan handle..it comes down.

PROS: faster strength gains, faster size gains, more productive workouts, stronger joints, faster adaptation to heavy loads, faster recovery, and if you release your mind from these limits everyone keeps imposing because of the old ways of training that were BLIND. everyone is blind in the world to something. most the world IS ignorant. so am i. there are things i dont know. one thing i know is this is the optimal method for putting on quality muscle and gaining strength.

CONS: None.(if done with a partner and with proper form)