Hemodialators

[shortbutnotshort]

hi, i'm just looking for some imput on my next hemodialator. if someone has any info on which product works better (oringinal NO2 or Muscletech's new Pump Tech). thanks guys.

[italionstallionl]

depends on the person (lol, that seems to be the answer for everything)
but, no2 is strictly aakg-for pumps
pumptech has tri-creatine malate
so hypothetically pumptech will give you better strength increases than no2, but then again that is not the point of no2, so these products are a little different and depend on what you want

[italionstallionl]

dr dinoiii what are your thoughts on this

The study:

Endothelin-A receptor antagonist-mediated vasodilatation is attenuated by inhibition of nitric oxide synthesis and by endothelin-B receptor blockade.

Verhaar MC, Strachan FE, Newby DE, Cruden NL, Koomans HA, Rabelink TJ, Webb DJ.

Department of Nephrology and Hypertension, University Hospital Utrecht, The Netherlands. t.rabelink@digd.azu.nl

BACKGROUND: The role of endothelin (ET)-1 in maintenance of basal vascular tone has been demonstrated by local and systemic vasodilatation to endothelin receptor antagonists in humans. Although the constrictor effects mediated by the vascular smooth muscle ET(A) receptors are clear, the contribution from endothelial and vascular smooth muscle ET(B) receptors remains to be defined. The present study, in human forearm resistance vessels in vivo, was designed to further investigate the physiological function of ET(A) and ET(B) receptor subtypes in human blood vessels and determine the mechanism underlying the vasodilatation to the ET(A)-selective receptor antagonist BQ-123. METHODS AND RESULTS: Two studies were performed, each in groups of eight healthy subjects. Brachial artery infusion of BQ-123 caused significant forearm vasodilatation in both studies. This vasodilatation was reduced by 95% (P=.006) with inhibition of the endogenous generation of nitric oxide and by 38% (P<.001) with coinfusion of the ET(B) receptor antagonist BQ-788. In contrast, inhibition of prostanoid generation did not affect the response to BQ-123. Infusion of BQ-788 alone produced a 20% reduction in forearm blood flow (P<.001). CONCLUSIONS: Selective ET(A) receptor antagonism causes vasodilatation of human forearm resistance vessels in vivo. This response appears to result in major part from an increase in nitric oxide generation. ET(B) receptor antagonism either alone or on a background of ET(A) antagonism causes local vasoconstriction, indicating that ET(B) receptors in blood vessels respond to ET-1 predominantly by causing vasodilatation.


PubMed


Here lies the problem; vasodilatation causes a drop in blood pressure (because as the veins widen, the pressure drops). Baroreceptors in the aortic arch and in the carotid sinus will detect this fast, sudden drop. In order to protect the body from going into shock, vasomotor centers in the medulla will cause the blood vessels to the brain to constrict in order to increase blood pressure going into the brain (too much blood can severely damage the brain, just like too little). This is a dangerous sequence that can potentially lead to catastrophe!

[italndiesel]

whoa....that is a litte scary

[dinoiii]

I am not certain exactly what my evaluation is on stallion. The study you put up?


If you want my evaluation of the study, I am not sure it relates to the supplements suggested nor NO supplements in general for a couple of reasons. Note: To spare the science discussions, I have included BOTTOM LINES after my gibberish or thinking aloud.

__________________________________________________ _________

First, it appears that the study you posted had IV administration not oral (known as PO in the medical community). The infusion rates would thereby definitely vary and cause a considerably slower rate of vasodilation. It is like comparison of the drugs Minoxidil and Hydralazine with Sodium Nitroprusside which all have eventual mechanisms of action, however, the former use PO delivery and the latter uses IV administration...this in mind, they have different hypertensive situations they offer treatment for. They will both ultimately break down to NO and cause vessel dilation, but timing is of considerable importance.

BOTTOM LINE: Different delivery systems does not allow the study and general No-type supplements to be compared.

__________________________________________________ __________

If you are talking about your statements after and their relation to the study. Sure, you could see vasodilation causing low BP to the brain (mind you, this would likely happen with arterial dilation vs. venous as you suggested in parenthesis). The O2 sensors are in the arterial vessels you mentioned, but veins are not oxygenated vessels in the first place. Indirectly, this does not mean they could not lower cardiac output through venous return. However, as stated above, the PO delivery is likely going to cause a few impediments to that happening TOO quick.

BOTTOM LINE: While LOW BP could potentially happen, again considering how NO supplements are administered, I wouldn't be totally concerned from the health aspect at this point.

The rebound vasoconstriction also has checkpoint mechanisms to prevent overcompensation that are likely too in depth a discussion at this time. High BP probably leads some to think of potential problems with aneurysm, however, this thought process is flawed not considering those checkpoints. Delivery mechanisms also are seemingly forgotten here.

__________________________________________________ ___________

I did not, therefore, give the "thumbs up" on NO supps for use mechanism of action, however, I do think they are ok from an adverse effects standpoint. Out of the two products listed, I think stallion provided a good response to aid a potential decision to which one to choose. Hope this helps...my mind is kind of distracted right now.

[SNS8778]

Original NO2 is basically just arginine AKG.

Pump Tech is essentially Arginine HCI and Arginine AKG. Up to this point, pretty much the same thing. Pump Tech contains Tri-Creatine Malate (LOL.... see the creatine thread where Tri-Creatine Malate was discussed to see where I think that is kind of funny), the problem there is that it makes the product inappropriate for a creatine off cycle.

Now, why anyone would pay that much money for the original NO2 is beyond me. If I wanted to try NO2, I would simply save myself a lot of money and use Nitrix by BSN that is available on Discount Anabolics.

We have a product coming out ourselves that I feel will be the best product in this category, but it is about a month away and I will not provide details at this time because it has ingredients that haven't been seen before and I don't like to give away my ideas.

[dinoiii]

We have a product coming out ourselves that I feel will be the best product in this category, but it is about a month away and I will not provide details at this time because it has ingredients that haven't been seen before and I don't like to give away my ideas.


Steve throws out another teaser. At least SNS looks like they'll be going full force when the ban hits still.

[italionstallionl]

no doubt about that, i honestly never heard of sns before coming to this website and this forum. man am i thankful i joined this, sns, myochem, nutrabolics, and the others that post on here are all great and have quality products. keep it up guys

[dinoiii]

Agreed stallion.