SIDE EFFECTS

[JBAGGIE]

Im new to the forum and to the latest pro-hormones, specifically Methyl's. I've had some past successful experiences with Deca, Sustanon etc.. However, this stuff actually intimidates me, Im not looking for massive gains just trying to get rid of a small amount of fat and harden up. If using methyl products perhaps one every other day for a short cycle, will I see potentially harmful side effects with small doses? Looking to use the 6-oxo, milk thistle, liver aid also. Any advice?

[dinoiii]

I advise to NOT use methyls "every other day" - therefore, use them continually. The endocrine lecture is probably not something worth discussing on this.

If you are concerned of sides, the following is kind of the list people report side effect appearance (this is a list of patient + client reported/tested side effects) - specifically for M1T...I think you'll find other methyls to be more tolerable:

< 10 mg: none
10-20 mg: joint pain (this usually runs I think from people trying out heavier weights though)
20-30 mg: LETHARGY (Most frequently reported)
> 30 mg: Liver inflammation (hypothesized side effect for the most part, but 54% pts. see elevated LFTs ... therefore really ONLY if you are susceptible!!!), decreased HDL, increased BP



*JBAGGIE: if you really are apprehensive about methyls and side effects - keep reading as many posts as you can here and I think you will grab more info than you can handle to make an informed decision.

[italndiesel]

which methyls - if you want to harden use mohn and methyl dien - the side effects of these should be much less than methyl 1 test

[dinoiii]

Thats what I included in my post, however, I think even if he were to do a "low" M1T dose, of <10mg -- there should be minimal if any sides.

[MAXX]

how quick will your endogenous hormone production shut or slow down with M1T's? approximates would be helpful (5mg, 10mg, 15mg, 20mg; just curious- though there may not be much info)????

how long does M1T stay in the system after cessation (detectable amounts)????

-this is intriguing....too bad i don't have access to medical journals nor a laboratory to see these types of things!!!! :cry:

[MAXX]

is there anyone that can help answer or give an idea about the questions above :( :( :( :( .... maybe some of the representatives can help out or people that often have their blood work done!!!! try to pass on the message if you can.... anecdotal may be useful as well!!!! :wink:

[max von]

MAXX

just hang tight im sure that you will get your answer im just sorry that i cant help you i dont know that much about that. some tomes its quiet on the weekend with the reps cause they send ther family time then but they will get back to you. If they dont let me know ill email the ones on here for you

max von

[ghostwheel]

My experience was M1T @ 20mg shut me down in 3-4 days. After a 4 week cylce it took me 2 months to get back to normal. This is just based on my personal observations, not blood work. It did however help me BLAST through some bench press barriers/sticking points. It isn't about how long it stays in your system, unless you are going to face drug testing, it is about your bodies natural test production recovering. I assume everyone will be different. I only did 2 weeks nolvadex, which probably was insufficient. But 6oxo combined with tribulus and Tongkat Ali did the trick. I do prefer as natural a post cycle as possible, as Nolva is cancerous, and the cycle spikes my blood pressure. I like my body to come back to nornality as naturally as possible by using a longer time period between cycles.

Hope this helps you. I am still trying to plan my next cycle out to minimize sides. Just figure high blood pressure, lethargy, and post cycle lack of test as standard. Oh yeah, More muscle and a bigger bench too.

[dinoiii]

I do prefer as natural a post cycle as possible, as Nolva is cancerous


I'm sorry but who exactly is preaching this? While Nolva IS "cancerous" - if you need to worry about the type of cancer it has been shown to promote, you should NOT be considering PHs in the first place.

Nolva is very non-toxic. This does NOT mean to take it like candy because you are playing with your endogenous hormones which will eventually shut down if continually surviving cycles by only being accustomed to non-natural stimulation - I like your thinking there. But, what the hell - NOLVA is shown to slightly be involved in ENDOMETRIAL PROLIFERATION because of its effect on the positive feedback mechanisms of estrogen to LH for ovulation in a FEMALE. If you are not female, you really have little room for alarm.

[max von]

Dinoiii that is the best post that i have ever read i sure im safe with nolva

max von

[MAXX]

uuuuh ooooh.... will M1T cause male pattern baldness???? from LEGAL GEAR's bottle, it mentions PH's may cause male pattern baldness.... but it didn't specifically say "M1T" or "This product".... so can anyone answer my question???? :?

Can anyone tell me what possible SE's to expect from using specifically M1T???? :) (i know DOC posted something like that; with the different doses but i can't seem to locate it now :cry: ) so if you can please let me know the SE's!!!! :)

[dinoiii]

MAXX - I am going to try and be as clear as possible.


First, up in the earlier part of this thread you can find common side effects with the particular doses you were asking about. You don't have to look far to find your answers on that one.

Second, the conversion into DHT of M1T products is tricky. I only say this because a strange thing happened somewhere in the production. The methylated 1-test molecule started changing and people started rushing things through production without any testing to beat the ban NOT EVEN CHECKING FOR IMPURITIES. People started moving around double bonds (most notably the 4th position -ene reference in the hydroxyandrostat molecule we know as testosterone is often switched to the 1st position which makes conversion into DHT a little less predictable) and changing which position got methylated (interestingly enough some companies really screwed up the science here). But I guess considering a few things - you said you were using Legal Gear's product, correct? You may think if its a M1T product they are all the same, right? But this is VERY far from the truth. I am not saying that 90+% aren't effective...I am just saying there metabolism is different. The particular molecule that Legal Gear professes is 17a M methyl-1-androstene-17 b-ol-3 one ---> I think that is the molecule...see they have changed the double bond + added an alcohol group which has reactive properties as well as the methyl to the 17 beta and alpha carbons respectively. If anyone preaches that they know for sure its conversion rate, they are pulling your chain and it is utter B.S. NOW I HAVEN'T EVEN CONSIDERED WHAT WAS "PURE" and that is a whole different ballgame - if you run your finger down the Vida book and order a compound from China, there is NO truthful telling what you are going to get regardless of if a supplement company believes they are actually giving you a pure compound.

Third, in order for male pattern baldness to be an issue in the first place, look to your mother's side of your family. Is there a problem there? It is only then would you likely see an issue. Besides you could always take something like Proscar should an issue start to arise mid-cycle and if you catch it early enough...you may actually see the hair you lost grow back (I am not kidding). Perhaps a little minoxidil if you have CVS issues as well would be of aid, but the Proscar is easier to obtain. Pattern baldness doesn't arise spontaneously.

Fourth, just because the statement appears on the bottle, it is a protective factor. This is an FTC regulation to be there.


I have heard of some people stacking M1T with MOHN as of late....and this may be a way to govern the male pattern baldness effects if they should arise b/c any nandralone type molecule acts as a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor (kind of what something like Finasteride does in preventing the conversion of T --> DHT). Make sense?

Sorry if that was a complex discussion - there is a lot of important stuff in there. Before you get concerned that your putting "junk" in your body - I want you to think back to how long it took you to make the decision to take a methylated compound in the first place. It is a likely similar debate to those that choose actual AAS (which are kind of one and the same today). There were risks you were taking with the purchase. Don't let this in retrospect sway your obvious deliberation which may have simply been aided by the ban.

IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT CYCLING, SAFETY, ETC....and would want to chat about it more...contact me via email.

I hope this helps answer some of your concerns.

[ghostwheel]

Just for the record what catagory carcinogen is Nolvadex officially designated?

:shock:

[dinoiii]

This depends on what classification system you use. I know you are talking about the IARC in which it is classified as a CLASS I. Now, again - this is a quirky system b/c it takes into consideration the fact that it causes endometrial carcinoma - YES there's evidence BECAUSE OF WHAT THE DRUG IS DOING!!! It is causing proliferation of the uterine wall.


BUT
the drug is used to treat breast cancer - so it actually is an ANTI-carcinogenic as well. Be careful with how those classification systems are used. I cannot tell you how funny anti-estrogenics and anti-progestins are in the female body - but this is how hormonal regulation is.

You, as a male, have little to worry about ghost! It is very NONTOXIC.

[MAXX]

thanks GHOST & DOC; your inputs are much appreciated (this doesn't mean this topic is closed; so if anyone else has any other experience or comments please post them)!!!!

funny thing is>>>> i am understanding most of the things your explaining (complicated as it may seem at 1st glance)!!!! :lol:

THANKS FOR MAKING AN EFFORT TO PUT IT ON LAY TERMS AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE.... IT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.... although i myself am getting used to the more sophisticated/scientific explanations :wink:

another thing is that.... yeah.... there is validity to what you are both saying.... it's just a diffence in belief.... maybe a little bit more reseaarch and support may possibly steer one to lean towards the other.

Females in general will react very differently from the hormones that Males take.... same goes vice versa (certain things will work better for us than they will for our female counterpart).... but it untimately leads to individual susceptibility.... to simpy put it.... hormone sensitive cancers may be induced by taking excess exogenous hormones while others may be prevented or delayed by having a synthethic hormone bind to a cancer's hormone receptor; thus preventing it from using the hormone it really needs for growth!!!! Classification of carcinogenic substances are therefore something to look at.... different org. have different classification systems.... possibly looking at how they classified a certain product into a certain category may prove to be useful!!!! :wink:

I hope i didn't just ramble non-sense....and hope that i didn't offend anyone!!!! :)

[dinoiii]

I don't think you rambled "nonsense" per se...I think there was a lot of validity to what you posted.


I think you meant to say this:


What happens in the carcinogenic department is dependent (especially w/ use of a substance that inhibits gonadal hormones) upon whether or not the cancerous growth expresses a receptor for that hormone. This is your susceptibility argument - which holds a lot of truth.

As I mentioned, susceptibility too becomes imperative in the pattern baldness idea (as to whether or not you express androgen receptors to what level in follicular cells of the scalp). DHT binds more tightly to the androgen receptor than T. The purity argument is something everyone seems to shy away from, which is intriguing - but this may be the source of your DHT.

While I am not certain about your classification argument, I suppose you could classify males as a different organism (probably entirely different species :lol: ) than females.

What I am saying is that an anti-estrogenic in a female versus an anti-estrogenic in a male - for obvious reasons play opposite roles. If you take away E in a female, you lose the mid-cycle LH surge via positive feedback limiting shedding of the uterine lining ---> which is the pathogenesis in uterine cancer. MALES DO NOT have this positive feedback mechanism.



btw: no offense taken on this end. I am happy you are understanding what I am getting at - I take a step back before I post it and really put an effort into making the science simple (or as simple as possible) unless we are talking about arachidonic acid. :wink:

[MAXX]

MORE QUESTIONS....(FOR ANYONE THAT KNOWS)....specifically pertaining to shedding/baldness

These are my stats....for those that want to know
i'm 23 years old 5'2 and 115 pounds.... taking 10.5 mg of GAT Methyl Depot even on off days which is 3 days (FRI, SAT, & SUN).... I'm on my a 1st cycle ever.... planning to go on for a 4 week cycle.... i'm into my cycle about a week now & noticing a little bit of hair falling.... i don't think i'm being paranoid; i am very meticulous.... i always make my bed, & in the past two days i noticed hair on my bed (yeah i know it's normal to have a few hair shed, but i noticed more than normal....maybe about 20 pieces instead of 4 or 7.... i also noticed a bit more hair on my towel when i dry it off (can this be something)!!!!

the bottom is a link to my past post>>>> PROHORMONE NEWBIE

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=234&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=a sc&highlight=

1) if i take m1t and and my body isn't able to use up most of it during the workout, what happens to it (can/does it convert into DHT)? :shock:

2) how far into the cycle do people usually experience shedding (if it does happen; can it happen as early as a week into a cycle)? :(

3) if shedding does happen & hair is lost, will it grow back and hair return to normal after cessation of a cycle? :cry:

4) will minoxidil 5% do the job? (obtaining proscar may be hard) :)

5) if i start using minoxidil, does that mean that i'll have to stay on it FOREVER (if i want to keep that hair that i lost)? :?

6) Based on DOC's feedback that all m1t's are different....of the two Legal gear M1t or GAT methyl-depot; is more likely to convert into DHT???? :(

7) What other over the counters (shampoo, cream, gell & etc) are usefull against DHT and baldness???? :)

FEEDBACK FROM THE KNOWLEDGEABLE & EXPERIENCED WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!! :D

[MAXX]

ANYONE KNOW WHAT TO DO....HAS ANYONE ELSE EXPERIENCE ANYTHING LIKE THIS!!!!

[max von]

MAXX

im sorry i wish i could help you but i cant some one will come along soon im sure

max von

[dinoiii]

M1T's lack of a 4-ene group would imply that it would be a relatively weak DHT-converter if anything. what kind of pattern hair loss are you experiencing if you can tell (aorund the sides, receeding, from top of head alone, etc...)? Are you solely finding extra strands on your pillow and in towels?

I am curious why you feel Proscar would be a challenge? Staying on Minoxidil "forever" sounds like you are planning on passing tomorrow. Why such the grim outlook? And btw, NO I would NOT stay on such a compound for the rest of your life by any means! When screwing around with DHT, you risk potential sides you may not be aware of and DHT in some concentration is necessary to see benefits of exogenous androgen introduction. You'd likely be surprised as we tend to talk solely about the evils of the compound.

[max von]

MAXX

see i told you that you would hear something back and dinoiii is the man to talk to about your specific question

max von

[MAXX]

YAAY!!!! Glad to hear from you again DOC.... okay here i go again.... i have been seeing more than the usual amount of hair strands on my bed and in my towel when i dry off.... i think that it may be coming off of the top and side of my head.... i think mostly off of the top though!!!!

The 1st week on the cycle was pretty normal (usual amount of hair on the bed & towel; close to what i see every day prior to the cycle); didn't concern me much....then after the weekend; on monday, i noticed a bit more hair on my bed.... but ooooh well may be a day when i shed more than usual....then i took my shower....put on shampoo & saw that there were a bit more strands on my hand and washing off (whoo oohh) :o ....then i dried myself off with the towel.... looked at it.... (eiiii) some more hair; i ran my hand over certain areas of my head.... and i noticed that some hair seem to come off of the top of my head; very little to none on the side (huuuummnn; a little worried now).... so i decide to see what happens the next day.... then the same thing; some hair coming off the top!!!! Although this shedding may be normal for some people; this sure is not normal for me.... like i said i usually find ooooh 4-7 strands on my bed when i wake up; but now, its more like 10-20 on the bed alone!!!! (am i being too paranoid/is this something that's expected????).... ooooh and another thing; i usually take a shower twice a day.... cause my hair gets pretty oily (really oily); but now, since i've been on the cycle it hasn't been getting oily!!!!

i am on my second week....and debating if i should stop it this week; i was hoping to go for 4 weeks; for the first week i was on 10.5 mg Methyl Depot but started halfing the daily dose (5.25 mg/day) this WED....was i taking too much on during my off days (10.5mg>>>> i didn't lift at all on FRI, SAT, & SUN)???? i'm trying to find out if that may be a cause; because MON was when i started seeing the this abnormality!!!! :cry:

i can get a hold of Minoxidil 5% OTC (in fact i already have one on hand; bought it before i started the cycle; but if i don't really need it, then i wont use it).... but PROSCAR on the other hand; i think needs a Prescription (correct me if i'm wrong); i still have a lot of hair and i don't think anyone will even notice the hair that i have lost; probably not even a doctor.... (they may think i'm being paranoid or even a little crazy)!!!! :lol:

:lol: yeah.... does sound like i'm planning to pass tomorrow.... but i was just been reading the labels and finding during my research that; when the use of these products is ceased (minoxidil & proscar), then the hair grown with it will be lost!!!! ( i don't know if this only pertains to the individuals with the serious hair problems)

THANKS DOC.... i'm just trying to be very cautious during this experiment.... i'm surely willing to learn more.... just provide me with some more info :wink: your feedbacks are always helpful!!!! :wink:

WAS PLANNING TO GO ON FOR A 4 WEEK CYCLE BUT MAY CUT IT DOWN TO 2 WEEKS!!!! :( (i think 4 weeks can do a lot for me, but 2 weeks may be safer from the hair standpoint) <<<< :lol: like many>>>>i'm really concerned about the outside appearance.... however; i am also trying to be very cautious with overall well being!!!!

already had 1 week @ 10.5 mg/day of Methyl-depot>>>>dropped dosing on WED after abnormal shedding (from my norm) & currently @ 5.25 mg/day & about to start PCT.... but maybe i'll hold off untill i get more feedback!!!! the cycle is going good so far; not a big fan of the shedding though.... i don't want to end up bald later on (maybe if my head was round>>>> 8) <<<< like him, then it would be okay; but it's not :lol: )

So DOC; if you can help me out with my questions & give me more info.... i would really appreciate it!!!! :) if you want to know more; please don't hesitate to ask.... i will try to answer your questions as best i can!!!! :)

THANKS!!!! (this is open to anyone that can help by the way)

YUP YUP he sure is MAX!!!! :wink:

[dinoiii]

Let's discuss a few things here which are worth noting. There are two preparations containing the compound in question - Finasteride, a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor (the enzyme involved in the conversion of T to DHT for those not up to date on these enzymes). The two preparations marketed and approved right now are Proscar which is a 5mg tablet approved for BPH and Propecia a 1mg tablet approved for EARLY male pattern baldness. The notion of bb's taking Proscar for it is the fact that you can get it in many on-line sources (again be careful what you are purchasing here and where from) and there really are a lot of armchair scientists preaching absolute bunk on forums and the like starting silly trends and this is where you see the side effects start to pop up.

Considering your current history - I am not sure it would be difficult for your doctor to prescribe the Propecia to you. What is your age and mother's side family history?

There are a couple of reasons I would say to attempt to get your hands on this versus Minoxidil.

(1) Bioavailability is better. DHT levels are reduced in 8 hours.

(2) It lasts longer. Effects shown for 24 hours. Half life is about 8 hours (longer as you grow older).

(3) Not many adverse metabolic effects. It is not metabolized and excreted through the kidneys - most of it goes through the feces which is ideal if you are using other supplements like creatine or the like and many exogenous androgens concurrently. 50% is metabolized whereas most of minoxidil is byproduct by the time it is effective.

(4) With prolonged use (not your entire life mind you, but 3-6 mos.) you actually see increased hair growth in MOST users even in areas of loss - what we call hypertrichosis. This is not evident with minoxidil preps.

(5) Reported side effects are: decreased libido (which is a side of most exogenous androgens anyway), ejaculation disorders/erectile dysfunction (so you become the 2-minute man provided you aren't that already which you may move up to 30 seconds - so what ... you can actually convince your girlfriends/wife that this is a genetic ADVANTAGE as propogation of the species as you can pass sperm more readily to more people makes you an alpha male - she may just buy it :P ). Now before I scare you away remember that minoxidil has these side effects too, PLUS it has adverse effects if you do not have cardiovascular problems or more importantly BP problems. I will tell you that the side effects usually go away with a > 1 month use of the product or if you discontinue use. It is really kind of like being on cycle.

Now, there is a disadvantage of using prolonged HIGH doses which is why I encourage the use of the 1mg prep. It can have neurologic sides which is one of DHT's normal roles - imagine what happens when you decrease it. But I will tell you this is a very RARE side effect and you really have to consume > 50mg twice per day (bid) which you are NOWHERE near with the Propecia dose. you are actually about 99mg/day off which is quite a bit.

__________________________________________________ ___________
A couple other things that struck me as peculiar.

* Realize your hair NEEDS a certain amount of natural "oil" production per day for survival. It will respond to EXCESSIVE WASHING simply by producing more oil. First things first - washing your hair every day may likely be too much in fact ... wash your body for the benefit of those around you but your hair is tricky. Maybe on your non-workout days when you do not sweat as much, you can consider forgoing the hair washing in favor of simply washing your body off. I am NOT kidding about this either. What you report really distresses me.

* Excessive washing would likely be more your issue versus working out considering the history you supplied. This includes higher chances than the M1T product as well unless you were the unfortunate recipient of a contaminated bottle of some sort, but I am leaner toward the former.



Hope you find this helpful.

[MAXX]

okay....lets say i'm not able to use up a lot of the T from the M1T; (other than being excreated); what happens to it???? say i propagate everyday :) .... is my body actually using the left over T for something else (this is my 1st cycle of anything & i don't do drugs or drink alcohol; so can my healthy liver actually be converting T>>>>DHT by 5-ARD); can this also be the cause of the shedding (i know that this stuff is suppose to make my libido low, especially at a higher dose; but it hasn't yet); however i did notice that "IT" was a bit more limp (hahahaha.... not getting the same pump down there as i do in my other body parts) :lol: sorry....i'm not intending to disgust anyone!!!! just trying to report a few more sides (i'll give more info on the other sides i experienced when i'm done with my cycle) :wink: