Why the preworkout/during workout shake?

[Trans_Isomer]

Why the pre/during workout shake?

There are many, many benefits of consuming a protein shake both preworkout and during your workout. What do I define a Preworkout shake as? Each person may tweak their own preworkout shake ingredients a little, but I personally go with 1 scoop of Cytosport Cytogainer and 1 Scoop Syntrax Matrix with 20g of Avant Labs Supercarb. Basically a Protein + Carb drink. When do I drink this? I typically consume this preworkout shake 60-45 minutes before my workout. During my workout, I consume BCAA's if I have the money, but if im a little low on some dough, I go with a scoop of protein and a gatorade. Now, we look to the reasons why...

1) Raise of Insulin levels
-Drinking a shake preworkout/during your workout has many benefits. One is the raise of insulin levels. Insulin is very anabolic, and actually blunts the raise of the catabolic hormone cortisol (1).

2) Prevents muscle breakdown
-These shakes will help supply a large amount of amino acids to help prevent muscle breakdown. I think Layne states it best in his own words "Research has shown that during bouts of intense training, no matter how full glycogen stores are, some amino acids are taken from the amino pool and used for ATP production (energy). If your amino pool is depleted, your body will actually catabolize muscle tissue to help make ATP. Taking a shake containing whey protein which is rich in branch chain amino acids which make up a large portion of the amino acid pool will ensure that your amino pool is replenished and muscle tissue will not be catabolized. (1)"

Some also state the problem of digestion, in which blood flow must be redirected from the muscle to aid in. However, this problem is solved as diluting your shake with 1-2 liters of water will solve this (1).

Essential Amino Acids (EAA's)

Essential amino acids are the ones that must be taken in by your diet, your body cannot make these on its own. This includes the amino acids:

1) Histidine
2) Isoleucine
3) Methionine
4) Phenylalanine
5) Threonine
6) Tryptophan
7) Valine
8) Leucine

Now whats so special about these amino acids? Well, for one they increase protein synthesis above basal levels, also reducing muscle soreness.

-"Ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused (2)."
-Also note "Nonessential amino acids are not necessary for stimulation of net muscle protein balance (6 g EAAs provides double the response of 3 g EAA and 3 g of nonessentail AA) (3)".
-Also, "Consumption of 40 g EAAs after heavy resistance training results in a change from net protein degradation (-50 +/- 23 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) to net protein synthesis (29 +/- 14 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1; P < 0.05) (2)".
-Also "A 0.15 g/kg/h AA infusion for 3 h in 6 normal men increases muscle protein synthesis by 141%. After exerecise this increase is 291%. Muscle protein breakdown was not significantly affected (4)".
-"3.6 g AAs before and after exercise + 2 doses/d for 4 d after the exercise suppresses the rise in serum creatine kinase activity. This also diminished muscle soreness (7)".

Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA's)

Branched Chain Amino acids are a very special bunch of amino acids. The BCAA's consist of the amino acids
-Leucine
-Isoleucine
-Valine

BCAA's help prevent muscle breakdown/damage. Lets look at some of the studies done on them.

-"It is known that BCAA oxidation is promoted by exercise (8)".
-"Since 1978 a variety of studies have been performed in humans where BCAAs or leucine alone was administrated in varying amounts and durations. An anabolic effect of leucine and the branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) on reduction of muscle protein breakdown was found in these studies (9)".
-7.5-12 g BCAAs during intense exercise (a 30 km cross-country race and a full marathon) increases BCAA plasma and muscle concentration. In the placebo group plasma BCAA decreased and left muscle levels unchanged. The placebo group showed a 20-40% increase in the muscle concentration of aromatic AAs. BCAA supplementation prevented this increase in aromatic AAs in both muscle and plasma. These results suggest that an intake of BCAAs during exercise can prevent or decrease the net rate of protein degradation caused by heavy exercise (10).
-77 mg BCAAs/kg supplementation before exercise resulted in a doubling (P < 0.05) of the arterial BCAA levels before exercise (339 +/- 15 vs. 822 +/- 86 microM). During the 60 min of exercise, the total release of BCAA was 68 +/- 93 vs. 816 +/- 198 mumol/kg (P < 0.05) for the BCAA and control trials, respectively. Furthermore, the increased intramuscular and arterial BCAA levels before and during exercise result in a suppression of endogenous muscle protein breakdown during exercise (12).
-"We hypothesized that BCAA supplementation would reduce the serum activities of intramuscular enzymes associated with muscle damage. 120 minutes exercise on a cycle ergometer significantly increases serum creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) up to 5d postexercise.
12 g BCAAs for 14d in 16 men (the exercise on day 7) significantly reduces this change in LDH and CK (13).

BCAA's help aid in fat loss

-"BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance (14).
-Twenty-five competitive wrestlers restricted their caloric intake (28 kcal.kg-1.day-1) for 19 days. A high-BCAA diet provided 4 kg of weight loss, and 17,3% decrease in fat loss. There was no change in aerobic (VO2max) (p > 0.75) and anaerobic capacities (Wingate test) (p > 0.81), and in muscular strength (p > 0.82). (15).


Now as you can see, there is very, very good evidence of the positive effects of amino acids relating to resistance training. Now why only consume them post workout? Are you not in/entering a depleted state while working out? During your workout, catabolic activities are causing protein and muscles to be broken down. While we are training, we want to decrease how much protein and muscle is broken down, but also crank up protein synthesis. thus enhancing our recovery efforts. Consuming a preworkout shake ensure a steady amount of amino acids are being used by the body to prevent/reduce muscle damage. Consuming a shake during your workout will help stave off catabolism, while helping to kickstart protein synthesis. It has been shown in studies that in the absence of food, protein breakdown exceeds protein synthesis (2,5,6). Thus, the reason for the pre/workout shake. Would it be better to consume these amino acids in free form? Yes, If you can afford a EAA or BCAA mix, then this is much better, as non essential amino acids (NEAA's) are not as important in this time frame. But, will a protein shake still be effective? Yes :)

A little anecdotal...

For me personally, I am a definite beleiver in the preworkout/during workout shake. Whenever I miss a preworkout shake, I have lower energy levels during the workout, and need more rest between sets. Ever since incorporating a preworkout shake into my regimen, energy levels, recovery, and gains all have increased. Now im off to consume my shake... :)

-Trans_Isomer


References:
1) Layne Nortons Q & A
Layne Norton is a PhD candidate in the area of nutritional science specializing in amino acid utilization at the University of Illinois. Layne received his BS in Biochemistry from Eckerd College in 2004.
2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10198297&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
3) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12217881&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9252488&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
5) Philips, S.M., K.D. Tipton, A. Aarsland, S.E. Wolf, and R.R. Wolfe. Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am. J. Physiol. 273:E99-E107, 1997.
6)Philips, S.M., K.D. Tipton, A. Ferrando, and R.R. Wolfe. Resistance training reduced the acute exercise-induced increase in muscle protein turnover. Am. J. Physiol. 276:E124, 1999.
7) http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/6/1583S
8) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12501002&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
9) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15930473&query_hl=1
10) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1481685&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
11) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7810616&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
12) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7810616&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
13) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=11125767&dopt=Abstract
14) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10418071&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
15) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9059905&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink

[snakemw]

great post trans. i actually read somewhere that consuming Amino Acids b4 and during the workout were more beneficial then after the workout. ill try to find it somewhere and post it.

[Trans_Isomer]

great post trans. i actually read somewhere that consuming Amino Acids b4 and during the workout were more beneficial then after the workout. ill try to find it somewhere and post it.

Thanks snake, the article you mentioned sounds interesting, post it when you can :)

[dinoiii]

Oh, it's on!!!!

[dinoiii]

First: Do you know where Tipton, et al's vested interest lies?

[Trans_Isomer]

Bring it!! ;)

And no, im not sure where tipton's interest lies. I look forward to your thoughts on the subject, I read your preworkout thread you wrote a long time ago, though I remain convinced in the preworkout protein effectiveness!

[dinoiii]

Its already been broughtEN!

[dinoiii]

Couple of early notes: digestion, physiology, endocrinology, etc... are not and should not be taken in isolation with exclusion of another.

Tipton, et al. studied many novice trainees who would have benefited unfortunately either way, but alas I digress ... it is usually that research that gets cited as I stated in the other thread you speak of.

And yes, a lot of your references are in regards to POST-workout studies, which I think remain tried and true. Definitions of "pre" workout need to take into consideration GI transit times, etc... but we will discuss this more.

[Trans_Isomer]

Does Tipton have any vested interest in any companies? Im not sure if thats what you were alluding to, but not trying to sound mean like, but you have vested interest as well (your supp company, book, clients...)

And I know that SOME of the studies are post workout related, however, the data gained support the preworkout time frame for the ingestion of amino acids.

[dinoiii]

I have NO vested interest for at least another 5-6 months. And, by the way...I am as close to altruistic as you'll ever get in this industry. I would hope that is something you have learned by now. And no, I take no offense with what you write...I am certainly prepared to back that which I preach...and with it fend off all challengers!

A book doesn't pose vested interest in the same way and I won't degrade a researcher, but ask you explore a bit more of the studies you post outside of just the abstracts - i.e. - funding, etc... You will see a common pattern, trust me...


oh yeah and to cross reference the other thread you have spoken of for others who have not followed:
http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2204&page=1&pp=10

Its a great debate back and forth in any regard and I encourage everyone to chime in with thoughts. This is really what I have forseen with forums all along and alas Trans you have given it to me.

[Trans_Isomer]

Im glad you still have a sense of humor through this, as I have oftentimes seen many get angry when counterpoints are argued! :)

I havent really looked into the "background" of many studies, funding and such, but upon your advice I shall begin to.

These types of debates are great, and I also hope others will chime in, even if anyone doenst understand the "sciency" stuff, anecdotal feedback is welcome.

[Trans_Isomer]

Norton LE, Layman DK.

Division of Nutritional Sciences, Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL 61801.

High-performance physical activity and postexercise recovery lead to significant changes in amino acid and protein metabolism in skeletal muscle. Central to these changes is an increase in the metabolism of the BCAA leucine. During exercise, muscle protein synthesis decreases together with a net increase in protein degradation and stimulation of BCAA oxidation. The decrease in protein synthesis is associated with inhibition of translation initiation factors 4E and 4G and ribosomal protein S6 under regulatory controls of intracellular insulin signaling and leucine concentrations. BCAA oxidation increases through activation of the branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH). BCKDH activity increases with exercise, reducing plasma and intracellular leucine concentrations. After exercise, recovery of muscle protein synthesis requires dietary protein or BCAA to increase tissue levels of leucine in order to release the inhibition of the initiation factor 4 complex through activation of the protein kinase mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR). Leucine's effect on mTOR is synergistic with insulin via the phosphoinositol 3-kinase signaling pathway. Together, insulin and leucine allow skeletal muscle to coordinate protein synthesis with physiological state and dietary intake.

Insulin + Leucine aid in protein synthesis. You get both a rise in insulin and leucine from a protein shake. I also want to note, I beleive EAA's and/or BCAA's to be superior in the pre/during workout time frame than a protein shake, as NEEA's are not as important in this time frame. Free form amino acids, unlike protein, do not need to be broken down. I dont advocate a drinking a full size 4 scoops protein shake 45 minutes preworkout or during your workout, but a scoop or two. A full stomach during your workout can have a negative effect upon your workout, but a scoop or two of protein wont fill you up, and allows a steady stream of EAA's and BCAA's.

Again, free form amino acids are superior to whole proteins during this time frame.

[italionstallionl]

I am definitely looking forward to this, but either way i will most likely stick to what ive been doing as i am really liking the "results".

In case you were wondering i have been taking 30g bcaa's spread through out about 10 min pre-workout up through close to the end of my workout

[snakemw]

i am looking forward to this too. trans i have been trying to find that article. i think i read it in a magazine i have so ill look some more tonight.

[Trans_Isomer]

i am looking forward to this too. trans i have been trying to find that article. i think i read it in a magazine i have so ill look some more tonight.

Awesome, any feedback yourself on workouts with an empty stomach vs. preworkout shake?

[dinoiii]

Unfortunately, I want to point out that you are certainly taking arguments and putting together decent points, albeit flawed in my opinion. Of course, if I agreed with you 100%, what fun would that be anyway? ;-)


And no, I do NOT take offense - you have been keeping up with my rants (particularly the one on forums), correct?


So let's delve in a little. You offer points and then counter your own points ya know?

Emphatically, you state that INSULINOMIMETIC response will dictate anabolism and the Norton/Layman study may have you believe that is exactly what is being done. Everyone seems to think digestion and endocrinologic responses are mutually exclusive though and apparently happen in a vaccuum, which we both can agree on to NOT be the case.

See, the entire process is as follows - PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME ANABOLISM, ANABOLISM, ANABOLISM and never evil catabolism would be the way to go. During the workout, it is actually ideal. This is body composition at its finest and everyone is simply working with the selling point of supplements.

We'll pit the opposing forces. Epinephrine + Glucagon vs. Insulin

A rise in Insulin leads to a counter of the other two, but if this is to happen body composition WILL in fact be compromised. Why? A concept called INTERMEDIARY METABOLISM - which IS IMPERATIVE for body composition goals that are likely to include not only muscle growth, but also FAT LOSS. Epinephrine and glucagon raise blood glucose levels by activating glycogen phosphorylase - this liberation is IMPERATIVE to keep fatty stores IN CHECK.

The counter is true as well. Insulin works with an enzyme known as glycogen synthetase seeing the aforementioned processes come to a hault - creating the anabolic environment everyone thinks is all the rage. The amino ingestion (as well as lactate and pyruvate) you speak of are stimulators at the same time for gluconeogenesis allowing for a crash of ALL aforementioned endocronologic processes and with it, actually working AGAINST you in the realm of body composition. This is time for you to call upon yet one more hormone cortisol (bastardized by the media) - glorified within the body to actually promote this process! It becomes necessary to allow dictation of where those aminos would be allowed to become essential.

AND THIS IS NOT ONLY EAAs and BY MEANS NOT ALL EAAs. See this process becomes so important as there is so much going on...not to mention we have yet to discuss the digestive system processes I spoke of in my article within the other thread.

Shunting blood from the musculature to the digestive tract in the immediate pre-workout realm will put you in a disadvantageous position.

We're just getting started though...

[Trans_Isomer]

Glad you arent taking offense, and yes im glad we are having this discussion of point/counter point. They say if everyone agrees only one person is doing the thinking ;)

In response to the digestion part, I may see some relevance to ingestion of whole proteins preworkout, but isnt ingestion of free form EAA's and/or BCAA's a different story?

And like you said, im sure theres still a lot more to this.

[dinoiii]

Quick chime in between patients: BCAAs yes...appropriate ratios of EAAs gets a bit more sticky. more later...

[snakemw]

here is an excerpt from the article i was talking about. it was also done by Tipton.
Another excellent study by Dr. Tipton and co-workers was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral EAA/Carb supp. before excercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance excercise. Interestingly enough, the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAA/carb solution immediately before resistance excercise is greater than when the solution is consumed after excercise. According to the authors of this study, it's likely that the greater delivery to the muscle during pre-excercise supplementation account for the greater net uptake than during post-excercise supplementation. Providing amino acids at a time when blood flow is elevated (e.g. during an excessive bout) maximizes delivery to muscle.


this is from the Jan. 2006 issue of MD pg.197

[Trans_Isomer]

Awesome, any feedback yourself on workouts with an empty stomach vs. preworkout shake?

Bump for snake! :)

[Kingdime1332]

I know for me personally, I fell that when I drink a pre-workout shake I tend to feel a little full. That in turn leads me to somewhat drag through a workout.

Also, I tend to throw-up the pre-workout shake sometimes which definitely hinders my workout, haha.

As for a during workout I am thinking of trying Cytomax by Cytosport but I am still looking into it some more.

[snakemw]

trans sorry it took so long for me to answer. right now here is my schedule for before and during training:

1.5-2 hours before training --i like to eat a whole food meal that is high in protein and low GI carbs.

30 min pre w/o-- i take SNS CVM with some Vit. C and E

15 min pre and during training-- i sip on an Amino Acid supplement not sold on DA, but i love it.

i think this is what works best for me. if i have strait whey too close to my workout i feel full for the first half of my workout but with the AA's that i am sipping on throughout i dont feel full and i actually feel like i have a good bit more of endurance.

[dinoiii]

here is an excerpt from the article i was talking about. it was also done by Tipton.
Another excellent study by Dr. Tipton and co-workers was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral EAA/Carb supp. before excercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance excercise. Interestingly enough, the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAA/carb solution immediately before resistance excercise is greater than when the solution is consumed after excercise. According to the authors of this study, it's likely that the greater delivery to the muscle during pre-excercise supplementation account for the greater net uptake than during post-excercise supplementation. Providing amino acids at a time when blood flow is elevated (e.g. during an excessive bout) maximizes delivery to muscle.


Tipton and the boys...

And boys WILL be boys.

Have you checked the N (i.e. - sample size) of UNTRAINED athletes they used. This doesn't apply to anyone here - it is essentially worthless as the increments proposed would have happened anyway - not to mention...they fudged the power value...check out the complete study - not something from MD which has vested interest in its advertisers!!!! That's where ALL its funding comes. Never assume they don't consider that!

Another "LOUSY" study by this cohort in my opinion.

[mcsteveof2h2h]

i've always felt that too much pre workout slows my lifts down and as noted above a few times i have found myself puking it up on occasion

i was always under the impression that a post workout consumption of high GI index carbs, proteins and BCAAs will create the best envrionment for muscle building being that the increase in insulin and protein will allow for greater building

i like what im seeing here as far as what is being thrown around for an answer to a great nutrition timing question!

cant wait to see the overall results to this post!

[Trans_Isomer]

Heres a new one

The effects of amino acid supplementation on hormonal responses to resistance training overreaching.

Kraemer WJ, Ratamess NA, Volek JS, Hakkinen K, Rubin MR, French DN, Gomez AL, McGuigan MR, Scheett TP, Newton RU, Spiering BA, Izquierdo M, Dioguardi FS. 2006 Mar;55(3):282-91.

Department of Kinesiology, Human Performance Laboratory, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269-1110, USA.

The purpose of this investigation was to examine the effects of amino acid supplementation on muscular performance and resting hormone concentrations during resistance training overreaching. Seventeen resistance-trained men were randomly assigned to either an amino acid (AA) or a placebo (P) group and underwent 4 weeks of total-body resistance training designed to induce a state of overreaching. The protocol consisted of two 2-week phases (phase 1, 3 sets of 8 exercises performed for 8-12 repetitions; phase 2, 5 sets of 5 exercises performed for 3-5 repetitions). Muscle strength and resting blood samples were determined before (T1) and at the end of each training week (T2-T5). One-repetition maximum squat and bench press decreased at T2 in the P group but not in the AA group; both groups showed similar increases in strength at T3 to T5. Significant elevations in serum creatine kinase and uric acid were observed at T2 in the P group; the elevation in creatine kinase correlated highly to reductions in 1-repetition maximum squat (r = -0.67, r(2) = 0.45). Significant elevations in serum sex hormone-binding globulin were observed during overreaching in the P group from T2 to T5; this response was abolished in the AA group. Significant reductions in total testosterone were observed in the P group at T4 compared with T1, and total testosterone values were higher for the AA group than for the P group from T2 to T4. Serum 22-kd growth hormone concentrations were elevated at T2 to T5 in P group only. No differences were observed in resting cortisol and insulinlike growth factor 1. Hemoglobin concentrations were significantly reduced at T2 to T5 in the P group. These results indicate that the initial impact of high-volume resistance training is muscle strength reduction and hormonal/biochemical alterations. It appears that amino acid supplementation is effective for attenuating muscle strength loss during initial high-volume stress, possibly by reducing muscle damage by maintaining an anabolic environment.

[dinoiii]

New Rule:

;-)

NO more reading abstracts alone...this is typical of "other" sites, but we will set a new standard. "results" usually reflect what the research group wants to reflect. Just be careful! PCT: ACV IV will explore the "politics" and the like of this protocol.

[Kingdime1332]

Trans have you read the pre/during/post nutrition article in the Mind and Muscle issue 5? I thought it was pretty interesting and informative.

[Trans_Isomer]

I havent seen that one, ill definitely take a look at it later on, thanks for the heads up

[Kingdime1332]

Yeah looks like Mind and Muscle finally got the past issue link to work, and I have been reading through some articles of interest and thought that you might like that one.

[Kingdime1332]

Here is a study, though not optimal because it is not regarding weight bearing exercise but exercise none-the-less, on BCAA's helping endurance.

Branched-chain amino acids prolong exercise during heat stress in men and women.

Mittleman KD, Ricci MR, Bailey SP.

Department of Exercise Science, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ 08903, USA. dwrite!kmittle@attmail.com

To assess the effect of branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) supplementation on endurance performance in the heat, six women and seven men participated in two trials of rest in the heat (Ta = 34.4 +/- 1.8 degrees C; rh = 39 +/- 14%), followed by 40% VO2peak exercise to exhaustion. Subjects ingested 5 mL x kg(-1) of a placebo (PLAC) or BCAA drink every 30 min. Cycle time to exhaustion increased during BCAA (153.1 +/- 13.3 vs 137.0 +/- 12.2 min, P < 0.05) for men and women. Plasma glucose was maintained at baseline values for both drinks; however, women had significantly higher concentrations (5.9 +/- 0.6 vs 4.0 +/- 0.2 mM, P < 0.05). Plasma free fatty acids and ammonia were not influenced by drink or gender but increased over time. BCAA resulted in a significant (P < 0.05) increase in plasma BCAA (1209 +/- 119 vs 496 +/- 44 microM), while F-TRP (9.6 +/- 0.9 vs 12.0 +/- 1.3 microM) and F-TRP:BCAA were decreased (0.009 +/- 0.001 vs 0.024 +/- 0.003 ND) in both men and women. Cardiovascular and thermoregulatory data were similar between treatments for all subjects. Psychological data were not influenced by BCAA. These results indicate BCAA supplementation prolongs moderate exercise performance in the heat.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 9475648 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[B-natural]

so, yes/no to pre-workout meals and bcaa supplementation, or use them later in the workout? and trans if you have access to layne norton, ask him about pre-workout carbohyrdate consumption as well as during workout protein/carb consumption, he says that these are essential during the "cutting" phases, agree/disagree, thoughts?

[Trans_Isomer]

so, yes/no to pre-workout meals and bcaa supplementation, or use them later in the workout? and trans if you have access to layne norton, ask him about pre-workout carbohyrdate consumption as well as during workout protein/carb consumption, he says that these are essential during the "cutting" phases, agree/disagree, thoughts?

I created this thread a while ago, and have since changed my stance 180 degrees. I use to advocate macronutrient ingestion, but now I dont. I think you would be fine if you are a sport athlete and drink 'gatorade' or whatever else since your goals are not 'cosmetic'. Heres a bit I wrote a while ago on the subject.

Insulin BLUNTS Growth Hormone (GH) release, and GH is needed to create Insulin like Growth Factor-1 (IGF-1). Without GH/IGF-1, there is no muscle growth.

Now, lets looks at what GH does and why blunting its release is NOT a good idea during your workout.

1.) Growth Hormone (GH)
- Stimulates most body cells to GROW and DIVIDE
- Its major target is bone and SKELETAL MUSCLE
- It is an ANABOLIC or 'BUILDING' hormone
- Secretion is regulated by Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) and Growth Hormone Inhibiting Hormone (GHIH or Somatostatin)

Now once GH is released we promote insulin-like growth factors (IGFs) which then elicit both skeletal and extraskeletal effects.

The skeletal effects include increased cartilage formation and skeletal GROWTH, and the extraskeletal effects being INCREASED PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, CELL GROWTH and PROLIFERATION.

GH also has an effect on fat being that it INCREASES LIPOLYSIS which is fat burning.

These are some of the ANTI-INSULIN effects that GH has. Now with macronutrient ingestion, one must obviously, well, digest. Digestion is a process that takes blood AWAY from the muscle to aid in the process. This results in a 'tug-o-war' between your muscles and digestive system, both in need of optimal blood flow. Now with decreased blood availability to the muscle and brain, one can feel tiredness, nausea, exhaustion, abnormally high exercise heart rate (one of the reasons for sudden cardiac death).

The degree of the discomfort and such can all be avoided by avoiding the pre/peri-workout macronutrient ingestion. And if one doesnt wish to BLUNT GH release, going into the workout with an empty stomach is ideal towards optimal body recomposition.

CHO/PROTEIN/AMINO INTAKE PRE/PERI-WORKOUT

- Elevates INSULIN
- Lipolysis (fat burning) is SUPRESSED
- Growth Hormone (GH) is SUPRESSED
- The catecholamines (Adrenaline, Noradrenaline) are SUPRESSED
- Blood is shunted AWAY from the MUSCLE AND BRAIN
- Elevated HEART RATE
- Tiredness, nausea, dizzyness are noted
- Intermediary metabolic processes are halted
- Fat gain occurs
- Protein synthesis occurs


THE ANTI-INSULIN STANCE PRE/PERI-WORKOUT

- ELEVATED GH Release
- ELEVATED IGF-1
- INCREASED cartilage formation
- INCREASED Skeletal muscle growth
- INCREASED protein synthesis
- INCREASED cell growth and proliferation
- No nausea, dizzyness, tiredness during workout
- OPTIMAL blood flow to muscle
- INCREASED fat oxidation (fat burning)

[Trans_Isomer]

Just so no one is confused, I do NOT advocate macronutrient (protein, fat, carbohydrate) intake before or during the workout.

[B-natural]

well during the cutting phase, when would be the best time to consume carbs? start ingesting towards the end of the workout, then have a decent post workout meal with a 2:1 carb:pro ratio?

[Trans_Isomer]

well during the cutting phase, when would be the best time to consume carbs? start ingesting towards the end of the workout, then have a decent post workout meal with a 2:1 carb:pro ratio?

I dont advocate carbs anytime during the workout, BCAA/EAA is the way to go during the workout, no macros.

Post workout is when I would incorporate the carbs in along with protein.

[B-natural]

alrighty, guess I'll haveta get some bcaa's for my cutting phase.

I have heard things with caffeine affecting different pathways used during exercise, so if I were taking my scorch pre-workout, will.would that have any differing effect?

[Trans_Isomer]

alrighty, guess I'll haveta get some bcaa's for my cutting phase.

I have heard things with caffeine affecting different pathways used during exercise, so if I were taking my scorch pre-workout, will.would that have any differing effect?

I think scorch preworkout would be fine. Just avoid the macro's and you are generally in the 'safe' zone concerning pre/peri-workout supplementation.

[B-natural]

cool ,thnx bro

[BRUTEFORCEofSoIL]

Rookie question....but what is considered preworkout in regards to time....i workout at noon......so maybe anything two hours before or more/less than that?

[Trans_Isomer]

Rookie question....but what is considered preworkout in regards to time....i workout at noon......so maybe anything two hours before or more/less than that?

Generally allow 2 hours between your last meal and your workout.

[dinoiii]

I actually discussed with trans that I tend to workout at 6am (on days I used to work in the hospital, this early time was imperative - sometimes earlier)...this meant I had to wake myself up at 4am to eat...not kidding. Many called me insane, but in light of choices to go slim on anabolic compounds, you really have to employ as many tricks as are possible.

Only problem - and perhaps needless to say:
this has put a significant dampening on length of relationships I keep. :D

[Trans_Isomer]

Yep, it wouldnt be best to just wake up after 8 hours of sleep and workout, make time for that meal, and allow 2 hours for proper digestive transit.

I dont know dinoiii, just walking around campus seems to provide me both girls and many numbers, not really into that whole 'relationship' thing :D

[dinoiii]

Yeah trans, I am a bit older...and a "relationship" is something you would rather get accustomed to (in my old age!) than the simpler forms of intersex relation. ;)

[B-natural]

always great terminology bro, i do have a q tho, i tend to workout for around 1.5hrs, i eat 2hrs before my workout, 15min to gym, 15 home, this is 4hrs between meals, which in many cases is seen as a no, no...thoughts?

[dinoiii]

The 15 minute drive home should be a moot point. This is why they make protein very mobile. ;)

The 15 minute drive to the gym should be included in your 2 hour time frame.

This leaves us with 3.5 hours. Now, I am not certain where your body composition goals fall, however, this should not be mistaken for inappropriate tiiming.


2-hours pre-workout: Proper GI transit time, Counter-regulatory hormone upregulation time

Workout: Continued outflow counter-regulatory hormones

Post-Workout: Anabolic Supercompensation, insulinomimetic time frame (PRO-anabolic) by the time you set down your last weight....

Of course the next hour should include a whole foods meal as well!

[B-natural]

I see, and as of now, my goals are to gain some size, and in jan. goals will be to cut fat. I was gonna e-mail u with some thoughts on that, like cal restriction, cardio if and when, etc.

[dinoiii]

If when you say "email you" you in fact mean me - then I do my best to get back to as many as is possible. Fire away...I am usually more than happy provided I have info to offer.


Its funny ya know? 9 out of 10 guys that ask for info don't follow the ultimate advice and I realize this which is interesting, but alas I digress. I still am encouraged by the one that actually does and subsequently gets the body composition changes they desire....you have laid down the law on what goals you desire B-nat, now lets get you there.

[WarriorReturns]

I dont know dinoiii, just walking around campus seems to provide me both girls and many numbers, not really into that whole 'relationship' thing :D

haha yeah right! :D
reminds me of that scene in "Heavyweights" when the two fat dorks are trying to use this as an excuse why they dont have girlfriends

[Trans_Isomer]

Yeah trans, I am a bit older...and a "relationship" is something you would rather get accustomed to (in my old age!) than the simpler forms of intersex relation. ;)

Your old age? Aren't you 29? Good try though! :D


haha yeah right! :D
reminds me of that scene in "Heavyweights" when the two fat dorks are trying to use this as an excuse why they dont have girlfriends

Are you trying to say the two fat dorks are me and dinoiii?? :D

[dinoiii]

Trans:
I will in fact be 29 for the next....I don't know - 10-15 years. ;)



Fat Dorks...
Hardly!

[Party_boy]

You guys are gonna hate me for this one, but it's all in fun!!!

I have been reading this post for like the last hour, with all the back and forth comments and all the studies and the mumbo jumbo. When do you people actually train??? :D :D :D

Try my fool proof nutrition plan for getting huge muscles!!!

Protein and carbs before working out!!!

6 hot dogs on wonder bread and a 2 ltr. of Mountain Dew

Protein and carbs during workout!!!!

1/2 gallon of orange Gatorade with 4 scoops of high quality whey protein

Protein and carbs and healthy fats after workout!!!

3 deep fried and breaded pork chops, 2 baked potatoes loaded with butter and a 40 of Colt 45..

Beware this plan is not for amatuers, Check with your physician before starting a hardcore meal plan like this one..

Sorry I could'nt help it.. But I know your laughing right now!!!

[dinoiii]

You guys are gonna hate me for this one, but it's all in fun!!!

I have been reading this post for like the last hour, with all the back and forth comments and all the studies and the mumbo jumbo. When do you people actually train??? :D :D :D

nahhh,

this is your plan...that's fine...

see, just so everyone gets it....right now, it is 4:44am and dinoiii has been up since 4:00am (sometimes I kick the snooze after the first shake).

dinoiii gets up at 4:00am to be at the gym by 6:00am these days. While in medical school/residency training, this was sometimes earlier!

I will get on to your post next...

[dinoiii]

Try my fool proof nutrition plan for getting huge muscles!!!

Protein and carbs before working out!!!

6 hot dogs on wonder bread and a 2 ltr. of Mountain Dew

Protein and carbs during workout!!!!

1/2 gallon of orange Gatorade with 4 scoops of high quality whey protein

Protein and carbs and healthy fats after workout!!!

3 deep fried and breaded pork chops, 2 baked potatoes loaded with butter and a 40 of Colt 45..

Beware this plan is not for amatuers, Check with your physician before starting a hardcore meal plan like this one..

Sorry I could'nt help it.. But I know your laughing right now!!!

This plan would have you getting bigger though...just in the wrong sense.

So, how long you been following such a program with great success Party_boy? I was thinking about coming up with the hot dog supplement...errrr, breaded deep fried pork chop..........errrr Colt 45 mixture, but have yet to perfect the taste of all 3!



I actually am laughing more than I am being serious though...I know, I know - most people likely wouldn't gather that by some of my "science" posts, however, when I talk about fitness/nutrition/supplements/drugs, I got the game face on because I have some serious thoughts to get out.

[Party_boy]

Dino if you can get that all in one little pill you could make billions!!!:D :D

[dinoiii]

Dino if you can get that all in one little pill you could make billions!!!:D :D

Hehe - this sounds like a challenge....

I have found my secret formula - perhaps I should share with you some of the royalties??? :D

[Party_boy]

I'll take 1% of the profits I don't care, Just show me the money!!!:D

[Boxerboy]

I'm 5'10, 155, and trying to gain weight but don't think I get enough calories throughout the day. Just wondering, for calorie intake, how much is too much at a time? I know the best thing to do is eat small meals spread out throughout the day but I usually dont always have time to eat a bunch of meals, so whats about the max amount of calories I could consume in a sitting without it having a negative effect on my body? I'm also sure different times of day would come into play too, such as I don't want to eat 1000 calories right before I go to sleep, and what would be a good amount 2 hrs before working out?

[bLacKjAcK]

I'm 5'10, 155, and trying to gain weight but don't think I get enough calories throughout the day. Just wondering, for calorie intake, how much is too much at a time? I know the best thing to do is eat small meals spread out throughout the day but I usually dont always have time to eat a bunch of meals, so whats about the max amount of calories I could consume in a sitting without it having a negative effect on my body? I'm also sure different times of day would come into play too, such as I don't want to eat 1000 calories right before I go to sleep, and what would be a good amount 2 hrs before working out?

Hey Boxer, if you want to gain weight with great success just try partyboy's recipe for success - seems feasible to me ;)

[dinoiii]

I'm 5'10, 155, and trying to gain weight but don't think I get enough calories throughout the day. Just wondering, for calorie intake, how much is too much at a time? I know the best thing to do is eat small meals spread out throughout the day but I usually dont always have time to eat a bunch of meals, so whats about the max amount of calories I could consume in a sitting without it having a negative effect on my body? I'm also sure different times of day would come into play too, such as I don't want to eat 1000 calories right before I go to sleep, and what would be a good amount 2 hrs before working out?

Hey boxer...geesh - sorry I haven't responded to your post a lot earlier...

Questions for you before I can answer the best way I know how:
(1) how many calories are you consuming right now / day?

(2) how many meals per day?

(3) how many macros?


Your answer is going to come down to micromanagement of endocrinologic processes (read: how your hormones can be governed from what and/or how your ingestion pattern looks).

Some of these things were discussed on the chat the other night which you will see in a report slated for later this week on DA - in minutes fashion (prepping it off-site...about 100 other projects too though).

I await your response...

D_