!!!!PRO HORMONE NEWBIE!!!!

[MAXX]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

Hi; I just wanna start off by saying that this place is bodybuilding HQ….and I think I should’ve been here sooner….you peeps could have helped me out 10 years ago when i first started….okay enough of that…. I will warn you guys ahead of time that this entry may be too long for some of you & that I do like to ask questions….so here I go…. I’m 23 years old, 5’2 about 115 pounds (hahahaha; probably the smallest thing you guys ever had in here huhh :wink: ); I’m trying to get bulky and I don’t really want to take a lot of different PH; although it may yeild a better result. By the way, I’m a hard gainer….trust me when I say this…. I can eat & eat and not get fat….eat junk & not gain….my genes are a little weird; I can get really strong and look really bulky but my weight doesn’t get much higher than it is now: SO I WANT TO EXPERIMENT WITH MY BODY A BIT!!!! N.E. ways I have recently looked into trying PH.

Now for some questions:
1) I bought about 8 bottles of methyl depot but don’t really know how I should organize my cycle (some say no more than 2 weeks on M1T and methyl depot says “Take one tablet in the morning and a second tablet after lunch. Do not exceed 2 tablets during a 24 hour period. Cycle 4 weeks on, 2 weeks off for a total of 2 bottles.” <<<< I don’t get it (does this mean that I should go on two cycles or is it saying that after my cycle I should have taken a total of 2 bottles???? (mathematically one bottle should last me one cycle @ 2 tabs a day)

2) Do the other ingredients in Methyl Depot really make a difference?
5-Androstenediol 50mg
20 Beta Hydroxyecdysone 50mg
Proprietary Amplifier Blend 100mg

3) I know that they are a lot of M1T’s; but is there a preferable M1T product over the other (i.e. one that found a way to further increase bioavailability)? (put aside the name brands; I don’t really want to pay for the name…. I want to pay for the one that works well; although I know some manufacturers have been doing them longer than others, amateurs often come out with a better products; I hope I don’t offend anyone!!!!); I would like to stock up on a little more M1T’s just in case that they do work for me…. It may be a total waste especially if I’m not satisfied.... but I may regret not getting more if I do like the results….after all I hear that M1T is the best stuff out there!!!! (TIME IS RUNNING AND I NEED TO KNOW WHICH ONE PEOPLE LIKE BETTER THAN THE REST; RANK THEM IN YOUR OWN WAY WELL THE ONES STILL AVAILABLE OF COURSE) by the way I haven’t received my shipment just yet but I do believe that methyl depot comes in tabs (or so it says) & I’ve read that caps have a longer shelf life, so if you can….please help me out with this!!!!  I chose methyl depot because of the advertisement showing at the bottom of the web pages!!!! :wink: :) :lol: 8)

4) Since I have never taken any PH or any ROIDS; taking into account my body weight (23y; 5'2; 115#)….would 1 tab (10.5mg) of methyl depot be enough? When should I take it (1 hour before workout) I was planning to take:

1 tab for 4 weeks
Then off for 1or2 months
Or
1 tab week1
2 tab week2&3
1 tab 1st 3 days of week4
½ tab last 4 days of week4 (assuming that the tabs can be split unlike caps or specially coated tabs)
Then off for about 1or2 months

5) Do I have to/should I take another hormone PCT such as 6-oxo, ZMA, with Milk Thistle Extract <<<<or>>>> would doses of Tribulus Terrestris Extract with Milk Thistle Extract as my PCT as I wean off M1T with ½ tab be sufficient? :? Will these products still be available after the ban???? :( If so please specify which ones of these WILL STILL BE AVAILABLE long after the ban and I’m saying 2-4 years after the ban!!!! :roll:

6) Would I have to stop taking my amino acid supplements, vitamins, MRP’s, whey and just do everything the old fashion way and eat a whole lot of food & a ton of meat (mahhnnnn)???? :cry:

7) Would I have to change my workout while I’m on PH (I want mass)? Will the PH allow me to recover much faster, if so, by how much? (I do eat about 1 ½ - 2 g of protein per 1 pound of my body weight) Here is my current workout plan….(my lower body is really lagging and so is my back….any suggestions; any specific topical that may help my lower body catch up; any modification to my lower body workout or workout period while on PH to help them get BIG especially my calves; I want to get the most while I’m on PH (calves are really hard to work-out…. I need suggestions to help them get big….PLEASE HELP!!!!

Monday (chest & tri)
Flat press 4 sets 7-8 reps
Incline press 4 sets 7-8 reps
Incline flies 4 sets 7-8 reps
Dips 4 sets 7-8 reps
Tri dumbell extension 4 sets 7-8 reps
EZ-curl bar extension 4 sets 7-8 reps
Tri pull-down 4 sets 7-8 reps

Tuesday (Back & Biceps)
Lat pull down 4 sets 7-8 reps
Bent-over dumbel row 4 sets 7-8 reps
Seated cable row 4 sets 7-8 reps
Close grip chin-ups 4 sets 7-8 reps
Barbell curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Dumbell curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Hammer Curls 4 sets 7-8 reps

Wednesday (Legs)
Squats 4 sets 7-8 reps
Lunges 4 sets 7-8 reps
Leg extension 4 sets 7-8 reps
Leg curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Calf raises 4 sets 7-8 reps

Thursday (shoulders & forearm)
Bent-over dumbbell laterals 4 sets 7-8 reps
Standing lateral raises 4 sets 7-8 reps
Standing front dumbell raises 4 sets 7-8 reps
Military press (behind) 4 sets 7-8 reps
Shoulder shrugs 4 sets 7-8 reps
Wrist curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Reverse wrist curls 4 sets 7-8 reps

Friday, Saturday, Sunday
RECOVERY DAYS

8) Lastly….for the moment being at least….can anyone help clarify how the PH will assist me in building mass for my body….will it increase the amount of testosterone and speed up recovery; will my cycle keep testosterone level elevated even after 1 hour of working out….does that mean that I should keep working out???? Would that be a smart idea to keep working or is that overworking???? If PH does nothing more than what my regular body can, then why take them???? & please help me with my calf problem!!!! Thanks!!!!

[dinoiii]

Hey MAXX

I am the first to bite apparently and if you are familiar with my posts, you will get lengthy responses for the most part and if there are alternative questions, etc... feel free to drop an email.

I will address each of the questions I grab out of your posts in appropriate order.

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

you peeps could have helped me out 10 years ago when i first started….I’m 23 years old, 5’2 about 115 pounds (hahahaha; probably the smallest thing you guys ever had in here huhh :wink: ).... I’m trying to get bulky and I don’t really want to take a lot of different PH; although it may yeild a better result. By the way, I’m a hard gainer….trust me when I say this…. I can eat & eat and not get fat….eat junk & not gain….my genes are a little weird; I can get really strong and look really bulky but my weight doesn’t get much higher than it is now: SO I WANT TO EXPERIMENT WITH MY BODY A BIT!!!! N.E. ways I have recently looked into trying PH.


As you see I eliminated some of your lines above, but there is actually a lot of stuff in here to comment on.

(1) 10 years ago you began training (13 yrs. old) --> and how serious were you exactly at training at that point in your life?

(2) 115 pounds. I have trained people for the last 6 years and they range from a low of 95 pounds in the male category, therefore you are NOT the lightest thing ever to lift a weight...the lightest one in this forum --> probably only the one who's willing to admit it. :wink:

(3) You term your post PRO HORMONE NEWBIE and then state that you don't want to use a lot of PHs. Exogenous sources of anabolic substances is actually the minority for many trainees. I am convinced you are certainly NOT at your growth potential, however, and with the ban looming, you may simply want to stock up on these substances for pure periodic use over the next few years.

(4) Quantify "bulky" for me. i.e. - You want to realistically put on "x" pounds of muscle?

(5) Telling the science guy "your genes are wierd" will NOT work by the way!!! What does it mean when you say you can "eat and eat?" I did not see a caloric total nor protein/fat/carb tally and I am willing to bet that you can tell me what all of those values equal b/c you say you eat and eat, right?

(6) You "recently" looked into PHs and grabbed some methyl depot???? This question actually says a lot more than I need to explicitly. And I anxiously await your response.

....On to the next part of your post....

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

1) I bought about 8 bottles of methyl depot but don’t really know how I should organize my cycle (some say no more than 2 weeks on M1T and methyl depot says “Take one tablet in the morning and a second tablet after lunch. Do not exceed 2 tablets during a 24 hour period. Cycle 4 weeks on, 2 weeks off for a total of 2 bottles.” <<<< I don’t get it (does this mean that I should go on two cycles or is it saying that after my cycle I should have taken a total of 2 bottles???? (mathematically one bottle should last me one cycle @ 2 tabs a day)



* Well I can say I am glad you opted to question it before you really got going. If you have read my posts, I am a medical resident and you'd be surprised how many guys in the 18-32 yrs range come in to the office with similar questions. You are certainly not alone. The conundrum for me developed some time ago when I either was going to get acquainted with them myself and offer up some help, or risk sending my inquisitive patients off to the ole black market, et al. Now, you have also by reading my former posts know that I have seen people that use up to 8 week PH cycles and up to 50+ mg/day. And some remain "on" as far as AAS (which I should say current AAS with 10 days and counting) for up to years.

Please continue reading on beyond this post as I plan on coming back to this point. You are NOT in a position to even consider these types of behaviors. I judge from your initial post that it sounds like you don't want to take a lot of PHs and your intentions are likely recreational, not competitive - am I correct to have read it like this?

* To sum up your question - people have embarked on longer cycles BUT this does NOT mean it is either wiser NOR more beneficial. In your position - i.e. - what I see as a 1st cycle, longer than 2 weeks is BEYOND UNWARRANTED. I do NOT say going beyond 2 weeks is absolutely against endocrine laws as I am certain many bb's etc... taking hormones for years without problem would be nothing but minimally anecdotal evidence of the contrary. However, I will say that as supplement manufacturers, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution legally - ask Steve from SNS.

Still some will say your liver will spontaneously combust and your head will fall off if you even go to 2 weeks, 1 day. While I cannot guarantee that one of your "heads" may not take a hit, I will say that many of the horror stories are sometimes overplayed. It really sounds like you simply don't need this nor are you ready based on experience with these cpds. though. You sound willing to learn and unless I thought it was evident in your post that you were not, I will say sit tight and too err on the side of caution.

Now as everyone who frequents the board probably says I may have missed the mark on this post - I say "if someone wants to get big and ultimately make that decision, it is best to approach this this way and to stay tuned to further posts in this thread."

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

2) Do the other ingredients in Methyl Depot really make a difference?
5-Androstenediol 50mg
20 Beta Hydroxyecdysone 50mg
Proprietary Amplifier Blend 100mg



PERCEIVED results will vary dependent upon user. Overall, the science is somewhat convincing in their presentation, yet I think they simply look better on paper. Now, this is in relation to body composition.

Ecdysterone-type pdts. have some evidence I think to the beneficial side of cholesterol and BP related mechanisms which may be good protection on an M1T type pdt.

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

3) I know that they are a lot of M1T’s; but is there a preferable M1T product over the other (i.e. one that found a way to further increase bioavailability)? I want to pay for the one that works well; although I know some manufacturers have been doing them longer than others, amateurs often come out with a better products; I hope I don’t offend anyone!!!!); I would like to stock up on a little more M1T’s just in case that they do work for me…. It may be a total waste especially if I’m not satisfied.... but I may regret not getting more if I do like the results….after all I hear that M1T is the best stuff out there!!!! (TIME IS RUNNING AND I NEED TO KNOW WHICH ONE PEOPLE LIKE BETTER THAN THE REST; RANK THEM IN YOUR OWN WAY WELL THE ONES STILL AVAILABLE OF COURSE) by the way I haven’t received my shipment just yet but I do believe that methyl depot comes in tabs (or so it says) & I’ve read that caps have a longer shelf life, so if you can….please help me out with this!!!!



The truth: raw material all comes from the same place. Now - the corner-cutting happens beyond this point.

As far as amateurs go...I am not certain I followed that part - amateurs in the sense of "newer" supplement companies?

Additional truth: you'll probably hear all sorts of additional "stories" but that is what they remain as no one knows for sure about storage. I can say this - if you are going to take a chance on storing for years to come as it is an investment, I like the following breakdown at chance:
1. liquid varieties (coming year or two)
2. caps/tabs (1-4 yrs beyond that)
3. gels - caps (1-2 years beyond that, this is very speculative though)
And there are the stories - refrigerate them (no wait, that will offer moisture), shrink wrap em (no wait, then they have already been exposed to the air which is bad), make certain you rotate your bottles in counter-clockwise direction on every 4th day while clockwise direction on the remaining days AND YOU WILL BE ALL SET, yeah that is the best way!!!

You are either gonna take the plunge and do it or not. Sucks - but hey.
Think of it this way - maybe it is better rationalization. If you buy illegal AAS, you may very well be getting bogus pdt., here too you may be falling victim. Make the decision and stick with it.

As far as "best" results - ask 100 different people, you'll minimally get 80-100 different answers!!!!

For me, as pricy as it is, I swear by VPX Monster Test (good luck finding it at this point though) - but I really wouldn't grab liquids for longer than the next 2 years as I said. Perhaps it is due to liquid delivery, I have no clue. And you want a crazy stack - the Moster Test + their EQ or Molecular Nutrition's Boldione - WOW!!!!

But again - let's move right along....

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

4) Since I have never taken any PH or any ROIDS; taking into account my body weight (23y; 5'2; 115#)….would 1 tab (10.5mg) of methyl depot be enough? When should I take it (1 hour before workout) I was planning to take:

1 tab for 4 weeks
Then off for 1or2 months
Or
1 tab week1
2 tab week2&3
1 tab 1st 3 days of week4
½ tab last 4 days of week4 (assuming that the tabs can be split unlike caps or specially coated tabs)
Then off for about 1or2 months



See, I told you you seemed sensible. 1 tab if you are insistent to start with a methylated pdt. is probably ideal. I would probably say go out and grab one of the non-methylated 1-test products first - I know Chris has some great deals on here. Try a cycle with that first. You got time, I know you probably are feeling the crunch - but trust me.

I LOVE YOUR PYRAMID type style of administration. I have proposed this to many and you many consider beginning a portion of your PCT in the final week or MINIMALLY in that last 4 days of 1/2 tab.

Another note, DO NOT take both tabs before workout as planned, split them up over the course of the day EQUIDISTANCE apart.

CHECK THIS OUR FOR MARKETING: This product conveniently offers you 10.5 mg (where many of the leading brands offer a lowly 10 mg), I am certain that 0.5 mg is a big help. Hopefully if you did not detect the sarcasm of that statement, I will point it out now!!!

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

5) Do I have to/should I take another hormone PCT such as 6-oxo, ZMA, with Milk Thistle Extract <<<<or>>>> would doses of Tribulus Terrestris Extract with Milk Thistle Extract as my PCT as I wean off M1T with ½ tab be sufficient? :? Will these products still be available after the ban???? :( If so please specify which ones of these WILL STILL BE AVAILABLE long after the ban and I’m saying 2-4 years after the ban!!!! :roll:



Again, you can judge for yourself - I have a post in the PH board about Milk Thistle (keep reading). If it comes down to one stack or the other as your proposed options for PCT, I'd go with your 1st choice. No words on any of the compounds you mentioned being banned yet but as it has been stated, it may be soon that something like 6-oxo is. No one can predict this either. WOW - 2-4 yrs. - yeah no one here has that answer.

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE


6) Would I have to stop taking my amino acid supplements, vitamins, MRP’s, whey and just do everything the old fashion way and eat a whole lot of food & a ton of meat (mahhnnnn)???? :cry:



Both can be taken while on and off - You at your weight, etc... eat a lot of that stuff anyway, right?

Go out and kill a cow - eat the entire carcass. Diet MUST be in order which seems to be the missing link here in your post.

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

7) Would I have to change my workout while I’m on PH (I want mass)? Will the PH allow me to recover much faster, if so, by how much? (I do eat about 1 ½ - 2 g of protein per 1 pound of my body weight) Here is my current workout plan….(my lower body is really lagging and so is my back….any suggestions; any specific topical that may help my lower body catch up; any modification to my lower body workout or workout period while on PH to help them get BIG especially my calves; I want to get the most while I’m on PH (calves are really hard to work-out…. I need suggestions to help them get big….PLEASE HELP!!!!



I hope not to offend you, but I really don't think your program is written for true mass while off PH let alone while on. Now, this is amplified by your body type.

Recovery...this is a debated topic as well. On one end, you have the supporters that say this revs up all metabolic processes, thereby not allowing recovery as quick. On the other end, to be anabolic how could you do anything else but shift the anabolic processes to a > catabolic processes, right? I could never see how you could be so confused. Likely you will have to experiment with much of the jibberish that is out there.

I am writing an article to post in articles section that has a workout for such occasions with solely the quarantee that it works BECAUSE it is structured on the principles that work for a MAJORITY of people in each regard. I can also guarantee you this will be unique in structure but seemingly a surprise it has not been come up with before. Stay tuned here...

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

Monday (chest & tri)
Flat press 4 sets 7-8 reps
Incline press 4 sets 7-8 reps
Incline flies 4 sets 7-8 reps
Dips 4 sets 7-8 reps
Tri dumbell extension 4 sets 7-8 reps
EZ-curl bar extension 4 sets 7-8 reps
Tri pull-down 4 sets 7-8 reps

Tuesday (Back & Biceps)
Lat pull down 4 sets 7-8 reps
Bent-over dumbel row 4 sets 7-8 reps
Seated cable row 4 sets 7-8 reps
Close grip chin-ups 4 sets 7-8 reps
Barbell curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Dumbell curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Hammer Curls 4 sets 7-8 reps

Wednesday (Legs)
Squats 4 sets 7-8 reps
Lunges 4 sets 7-8 reps
Leg extension 4 sets 7-8 reps
Leg curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Calf raises 4 sets 7-8 reps

Thursday (shoulders & forearm)
Bent-over dumbbell laterals 4 sets 7-8 reps
Standing lateral raises 4 sets 7-8 reps
Standing front dumbell raises 4 sets 7-8 reps
Military press (behind) 4 sets 7-8 reps
Shoulder shrugs 4 sets 7-8 reps
Wrist curls 4 sets 7-8 reps
Reverse wrist curls 4 sets 7-8 reps

Friday, Saturday, Sunday
RECOVERY DAYS



email about this

[dinoiii]

PRO HORMONE NEWBIE

8) Lastly…can anyone help clarify how the PH will assist me in building mass for my body….will it increase the amount of testosterone and speed up recovery; will my cycle keep testosterone level elevated even after 1 hour of working out….does that mean that I should keep working out???? Would that be a smart idea to keep working or is that overworking???? If PH does nothing more than what my regular body can, then why take them???? & please help me with my calf problem!!!! Thanks!!!!

PH 101 in a neat nutshell: precursor to actual androgen which via enzymes in the body convert to androgen. Methylation in 17 alpha position allows to survive 1st pass metabolism in liver (process of glucuronidation, etc...)allowing for further volume of distribution in body to hopefully amplify effects. It appears we have legal steroids for 10 more days.

You can still OVERTRAIN, but much of what you listed (quicker recovery, increased anabolism, etc...) is likely to some varying degrees in different people as previously discussed. Your body can parttake in all of these processes, but anything that aids in the process is likely going to be a welcomed addition right?

Your calf "problem" takes a little more micro-management likely. Sorry I didn't have the cut n dry answers without more info. Again, email on this.

Hopefully this starts you out minimally in a different direction.

[MAXX]

Wow….fast response!!!! First off I would like to thank you DR. for responding promptly; I wouldn’t have expected you to be the one to respond…. I commend you for your current achievements and I know you will have much success in the future because you seem so passionate at what you’re doing. :wink:

Okay….here I go again….
-I started lifting weights around 13yrs old; probably stunt my growth (vertically challenged @ 5’2 hahahaha!!!!) thought I was serious then but didn’t have the right resource…. I remember watching ARNOLD movies and it made me want to be as muscular as him (like many others; I’m guessing)…. I didn’t know how to; all I knew was “lift weights”, “no pain no gain”, “the more weight the bigger you’ll get”; I just ate the regular 3 meals a day very low in protein & Kcals….man was that was a waste!!!! thought that was all…. About 2 years later I find that there is much more to it and man….that’s some work (eating the right food and all) and that’s a lot of $$$$….and I still didn’t know the amount of protein, carbs, fat, nor caloric intake; so I guess looking back to those days would make me say that I was sort of serious but misinformed by my peers who didn’t know much more than I did!!!! I started taking amino acids and creatine didn’t really see much gain in mass with my workouts…. I overworked my body!!!!

-For my cycle I would like to put on AT LEAST 4# of muscle; 15-20# would be a great gain; but that’s just methyl depot talking and it may be too good to be true for me…. As you have deduced, I’m not looking to compete…. It’s just for my own self fulfillment; however I am willing to work hard to satisfy my own wants & needs!!!!

-As far as my body being weird; let me go into that a little more; okay when I trained @ 13 yrs 100# 5 feet; I trained with my cousins (they were a little heavier and bigger to begin with 145# &160# 5’4 & 5’5 @ 14 yrs) we would do the same exercises and seemed like our forms were similar, but I found that the weight I was lifting started to pull away from the rest of them; did I turn into a power lifter???? Here was the layout of my workout; it was something like this; i.e>>>>bench workout MWF=7 sets of (warmup,12,10, 8, 8, 6, 4) & maxing out at least 1 every month; same for my other exercises>>>> BACK TThS & Sun rest (this didn’t change for the longest, weight changed but not the routine); I didn’t think that would make me a power lifter; I thought it would give me bulk and some strength (so I thought) around 17 yrs still 100#, senior in high school; I asked to train with the wrestlers to work on my cardio…. I practiced with the 103 weight class; some of them had been wrestling for as long as 3 years but they were never able to pin me or bring me down; I didn’t know any moves to pin them but I was able to hold them and bring them down easily and hold them….(was really funny to look at, people said); they would struggle and struggle to get out of my grip but can never do it….the coach decided to put me up against another weight class…. In the 145 & 160 man was that different….they were more of a challenge…. N.E. ways I didn’t like tights so I never competed (the coached literally begged me & even went up to my parents to try and have me join; but I never did it)…. So later that year I got a shirt for a 200# club which meant that I can bench at least 200#; man was that a shocker for many….small guy going up on stage to bench 200# for a shirt, well I did it & with ease….my bench max at that time was 270#, that was weird because I was still 17yrs and 100#; was also curling 60#, & lat pulling 200#<<<< thought this was weird for me.... I don’t know if this relates to anything but, I know teens get acne and all but I was getting a whole lot of acne on my back and still getting them (I have never taken any PH or ROIDS like I said); was I producing too much hormone which caused acne and resulted in strength gains or were those strength gains just a cause of my a bad workout program and strong determination to get massive???? NOW more of the weird stuff….I would have thought by 13 I would have some hair & I’m guessing you know what I’m talking about & where….but guess what it didn’t really start till I was 18yrs & under arm hair @ 20yrs (so what caused me to get that much strength?)…. 18yrs old and in college, I decided to just lay low with weights (I DID NOT STOP; I just calmed down; more of low weights and high reps and really long rest periods (about 2 weeks-1 month post one week of workout) cause I wasn’t getting anywhere with mass….my goal was to gain weight….so I ate gainers fuel, junk foods, burgers, lots and lots of meat (I prefer to eat meat all day long; I don’t really like veggies; maybe that’s where I’m going wrong), meal replacement shakes similar to ensure but 2x the amount of calories (about 600-700 calories), fat, protein, & everything, all in one 8oz can so a rough estimate of my daily intake was something like: (this is no B.S. either…. Hot pockets, pizza, pasta, and those high calorie drinks, I drink about 2-3 in one day, and I try to drink at least one before going to bed)

Calories 4000-7000Kcal
Carbohydrates 400-1000g
Fats 100-400g
Proteins 100-400g

So for about 2 years on and off I’ve been eating around those ranges maybe I go below sometimes; but seriously around those ranges…. And what do I have to show for….hmmmnnn>>>> about 5-10 pounds and a little belly….man I can say my body took a lot of punishment; I drank a lot of water…. Almost 1 possibly close to 2 gallons a day and my urine really reeked….with the vitamins and all the wasted products….well I never really gained and didn’t lose when I ate less so I just decided to eat like a normal person 2000-2400 Kcal…. I didn’t really lose anything maybe gained a little; but this might just be my genetics kicking in again….but through this past 5 years my strength really went down and now I can’t even bench 100# pounds for 12 reps<<<< now I DID do this intentionally because I want to be able to start over; be able to gain mass with low weight and not have to worry about lifting 200# for 7-8 reps easily and not gain anything!!!! For this reason, I believe that my genetics are weird!!!!

SORRY FOR THE LENGTHYNESS….but I would think that you would have a better overview of me if a told you a little about myself and my history!!!!

So now I’m trying to gain mass again…. I want to try PH and see if they work for me…. I chose Methyl Depot because of the advertisement I’ve seen in this site, it seemed like it’s a popular product (top sellers list in this site) although I can probably get more servings for Legal Gear’s M1T!!!!

For my 1st cycle I would like to gain at least 4# of muscle mass….but if I can possibly get more out of it, I would gladly take any advise; I’m always willing to learn!!!! :)

I am currently trying out the new workout program that I have developed and posted…. I would gladly try the program you developed for “TRUE MASS” while on and off PH!!!! :D

By the way, I’m finding that the strength I lost comes back quick; is there anything I can do about this DR????.; or anyone (I feel that this may be a problem because I may end up lifting a ton of weight and not gain anything again!!!!) :cry: I want more mass gains than strength; although I know they go hand in hand!!!!

I WANT BULK….I don’t really know how much weight I should gain, but I can say that I want to look like the professionals, i.e. FLEX & RONNIE (the bulk portion @ least) 8) :wink: ….by that I mean that I want to look as big as them for my height (5’2) be proportionate and thus I don’t know how much weight that is for me….and how big each body part I should aim for!!!! I don’t want 40 inch arms (hahahaha; just imagine that on a 5’2)!!!! :lol:

How can I get a hold of that MASS BUILDING PROGRAM….”e-mail” you said DR.? How can I e-mail you (your address please)!!!! Hope that my intake estimate is okay (I can probably use a little bit of help here too; so I don’t waste)!!!!

I WOULD APPRECIATE ANYONE THAT CAN HELP ME OUT!!!! :D

[max von]

Dinoiii
you got this one

max von

[dinoiii]

Before I address your post - a few things:

What is your opinion of "a lot of weight?"

You actually have given A LOT if info which would normally be asked on a 1st office visit anyway under a heading we call the Subjective 1/4 of a SOAP note. However, the info you provided offers me a lot of room to offer suggestion though.

40 inch arms are something neither Ronnie nor Flex could dream of either!

Mass and strength do NOT necessarily go hand in hand - as you have found out. Strength gains will come back "quick" due to muscle memory which I do NOT believe is a topic that has been covered on this forum adequately thus far.

YOUR VOLUME IS TOO HIGH for starters!!!

and you can email with the email box that appears at the end of my post.

[dinoiii]

While varying your caloric tallies so consistently, you are likely spinning your wheels. You said you have eaten in the range of 4000-7000 calories, yet then found yourself falling down to a mere 2000 like "normal" people, therefore at this point leaving you in the range of 2000-7000.

If your 2000 calorie days > 7000 calorie days though, you will not be successful. So, next I will ask what are estimates of time you followed the particular caloric totals you listed. If you say you ate from 2000-7000 calories, yet a majority were 2000 and in fact, only one was really 7000, I am confused to where the problem lies. On the other hand, it is more an issue of if you have eaten 7000 calories more often than not and not simply gotten fat at 5'2."

See I see 7000 calories simply eating meat a hard to believe truth, so I ask to post a real sample meal plan. SOmething that would exemplify a regular meal plan for you.

[dinoiii]

I guess it is in my profile box you can gain access to my email address.

[MAXX]

OKAY….let see if I can clear this up…. I consumed around 4000-7000 Kcal from junk, real foods, and supplements when I went to college>>>> that was when I was 18yrs old (I tried to gain some weight & I was laying low on the weights); yes it true what you say that I would drop on Kcals once in awhile>>>>but I probably consume less than 4000 calories approx 7 days (here & there)in a month, but I’m pretty sure it hardly hit 2000 Kcal (if so then it would be once or twice a month); so my 4000-7000 regimen would go for at least 4 months then I get fed up and lay off for about a month or two then I’d go back to it again but my Kcal would never really drop below 2000, maybe not even 2400 Kcals; so I would assume that I would put on at least 10 pounds in those 4 months; as far as activity goes…. I would just sit around and be a couch potato only exerting true activity when lifting some weights!!!!

As for the normal consumption of 2000-2400, that is probably an understatement, but none the less it was far less than what I was consuming when I was trying to gain…. I was probably still eating enough to gain some weight if I were someone else!!!!

And for the mass I want to gain, I don’t really know how much I want, but like said I want to look like the pros (the bulk; I don’t really care much for definition at the moment!!!!); so if it means gaining 100# on top of my current 115# just so I can look as big and proportionate as them….then so be it!!!! I am willing try and gain that much!!!! >>>> as for the 40 inch arms <<<< I was being sarcastic!!!!

By the way, here’s a site with clips of my idols working out….it’s in a totally different language (the site I mean) but it’s pretty self explanatory….just click on the links, wait for it to load, and there you go!!!! (I just hope I’m not violating anything….and if I am….I’M SORRY!!!! Just inform me and I will try not to violate anything again!!!!

http://body.builder.hu/vid_ronnie_coleman.htm4

Below is a list of the foods that I am currently eating regularly everyday….so if your wondering what I ate when I was in the 7000 Kcal range….it was mostly fats, sugars, and numerous junk….and your right; eating 7000 Kcal from meat would be very hard to believe, even for me….but I sure do eat a lot of meat like I said….really varies; depends on how it’s cooked…. Steak fried in butter with some salt and pepper taste really good, and so does fried chicked…. I just ate about 12 pieces of chicken wings before going on….and I eat a lot of rice!!!!

Ooooh and just in case your concerned with my cholesterol, HDL, & LDL…. I can’t really tell you what they are; everything was within normal range (under 200; I think it was around 140)….checked it sometime last summer....so I don’t know what it is now!!!!


My daily food intake falls are consistent with these (listed below) although I often miss a serving or two I still think feel that i have been pretty consistent.... I have only recorded what my meal is like this year; as I have said I am trying to gain mass & I’m trying not to waste as I did in the past! I hope this gives you an idea!


Food------------------------Serving size----Servings (24 hrs)----Calories (in one serving)----Carbs (in one serving)----Fats (in one serving)----Protein (in one serving)

Teriyaki chicken bowl------1 bowl-----------------4--------------------450---------------------------------83------------------------4.5---------------------------------20
Sardines (can)--------------1 can-------------------1-------------------188----------------------------------3-------------------------8.4--------------------------------29.5
Canned tuna----------------2 oz--------------------2---------------------60----------------------------------0------------------------0.5---------------------------------13
Orange juice----------------8 oz--------------------8---------------------110---------------------------------25-----------------------0-----------------------------------2
Double calorie milk--------8 oz---------------------2--------------------475----------------------------------51-----------------------21--------------------------------21.3
Whey protein---------------1 scoop-----------------2--------------------110----------------------------------2------------------------1---------------------------------23
Amino Acids (liquid)-------3 tbsp-------------------1--------------------100-----------------------------------10----------------------0----------------------------------14
Egg--------------------------1egg--------------------4---------------------7------------------------------------1------------------------5---------------------------------6
Butter-----------------------1tbsp--------------------7--------------------80------------------------------------0------------------------0---------------------------------0
Double cheese burger----1 burger-----------------2--------------------480----------------------------------37----------------------27-------------------------------25

24 hour totals (Kcal, Carb, Fat, Potein)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------5806--------------------------------729--------------------145.4----------------------------282.1

You can omit this bottom portion of the table because these are not very consistent!!!!

Plain Rice--------------------1 cup------------------4-8-------------------242----------------------------------53----------------------0--------------------------------4
Meat, poultry (fried)--------3 oz ------------------4-14-------------------75----------------------------------0-----------------------3-8------------------------------7

SODA, CHIPS, CANDY & ETC (no alcohol) <<<< and I do consume them every day too…. But I’m not going to include them because I just want to give you an idea of what I do eat!!!!

[MAXX]

SORRY IF THE CHART IS A MESS DOC.... i'm still having trouble with the e-mail address!!!! Let me know if you need to know anything else and i'll do the best i can to get it to you!!!! :wink:

Oh yeah....& one more thing I forgot to mention to anyone that will try to look at the link....I have no idea what language it's in so; PLEASE DON'T ASK ME WHAT IS WRITTEN!!!! THANKS!!!! :)

[max von]

MAXX

wow that is one heck of a diet i am impressed by the planning that you did if that dont put weight on i dont know what will good luck with it keep us posted

max von

[MAXX]

HAHAHAHA.... thanks MAX VON.... i hope that it does do it this time around 8) .... maybe my genetics will kick into muscle growth mode soon.... will try to keep you guys posted !!!! :wink:

[max von]

MAXX

good luck im full just looking at it

max von

[italionstallionl]

very impressive, my only qustion is about the 3 oz of meat/poultry fried that has got to be more than 75 calories, 3 oz of meat alone is more than 75 calories, then add the frying process

:?

[max von]

Good point Italion i missed that one that would be alot more then

max von

[MAXX]

yup, yup....sure is gonna be a lot more....but i wasn't getting too technical on this portion; if you also noticed i set the meat servings to 3 oz, many say that a serving is 2 oz, but ooh well.... when i eat fried chicken, it's just plain fried in plain corn or veggie oil.... my steaks however.... i like it fried in butter.... maybe 1 to 2 sticks of butter!!!! and yeah, it sure is work to eat all of that.... but this isn't as bad as when i was trying to really overeat to gain weight.... as guys probably already know, i have trouble trying to eat weight, that's why i'm looking to at prohormones!!!! :wink:

[max von]

i cant believe with all that food you dont weigh 400lbs man

max von

[MAXX]

hahahaha :lol: ....i can't believe it either; but i hope my genetics kicked in to another mode.... since i started working to bulk up again with "muscle".... i feel that i may actually be gaining something this time around.... not much but, seems like a little something.... i don't really want to check my weight cause i don't want to be disappointed if i see that i haven't gained anything again.... i'll just stick to feeling good, and have myself believe like i'm gaining!!!! :wink:

[max von]

MAXX

throw the scale away go by the way you look and what your cloths tell you thats how i tell if somethings working i only weigh myself once every 2 months

max von

[MAXX]

okay....after a year or so....i'm finally posting something again & hopefully gonna get some help....hehe....as for the progress in my gains....i'm still not getting what i want....only gained approximately 12# of muscle mass this whole time....so now my stats are.... 24 years old, 5'2'' & 127#....but geeze i swear i kinda look like actually weigh a bit more than i actually weigh....& damn strength gains are getting annoying....so i'm still try to trick my body to get it weaker....i've been lifting pretty lightly for the past two months....i don't think i've lost any muscle mass as my weight is remains at 127# & my physique still looks bulky....but anyways....i've only done one cycle of PH....& that's M1T....i still have a heck of a lot somewhere around here....i think i need to put a little bit more of it to use....so i'm gonna try to bulk up by going to another cycle....hehe....but anyways....i'm looking to go into another cycle....but this time i would like to use other PCT....other than the ones that i already have (6OXO, ZMA, TRIBULUS, TONGKAT ALI, MILK THISTLE, NAC, ALA, & HAWTHORN BERRIES) ....so any suggestions as to what other products to use.... I'm looking towards NOLVADEX, CLOMID & ALPHA MALE....however i don't know what dosing i should take & how to arrange them with my other PCT....i haven't gotten my hands on these items as of yet....but i will likely make my decision as soon as i learn more about them....& YES I HAVE ALREADY TRIED TO SEARCH THE FORUMS....& sadly i don't think i'm getting the type of info that i should be getting....so any help would really be appreciated!!!! THANKS!!!!

[SwollOnIron]

Dinoiii has posted a very good PCT article(s), in the article section. A good majority of your Q's will be answered there.

[MAXX]

THANKS SWOLL....but i think i've read through those articles already....& i don't think the answers i was looking for was in them....i think it might be in the next issue....i am looking into using NOLVA, CLOMID, & ALPHA MALE....those are really the specific ones i'm trying to get some answers for....& if there are any other good PCT products out there other than the ones already mentioned by DOC....as you NOLVA & CLOMID would fall under PHARMACEUTICS....BUT YEAH....DINOIII's articles sure are great & so is HE....hehe....i actually learned a whole lot from him....but yeah....hopefully someone can help me out with this!!!!

[wedgylx]

I don't think I would use nolva AND clomid. Also do some research on ralox, its becoming very popular right now.

[MAXX]

HELLO EVERYONE.... okay i'm back.... now with a new topic at hand.... but i think i need to update you peeps a bit.... so here.... my current standing.... i now weigh 140 pounds.... not much gains on measurements.... still looks somewhat similar to how i was before.... my caloric intake i've now brought down to appoximately 4000 kcal per day.... still includes junk as well as nutritional stuff....

so here.... i've been experimenting with my stash of M1T.... & ooooh yeah.... i sure as heck have a whole lot more of it.... in fact seems like an endless supply at the moment.... hehe.... so here.... i know in the beginning i was fairly reluctant on dosing.... but now i've tried 20 mg per day.... in two split doses.... as a matter of fact.... every 12 hours.... & cycle it for 8 weeks.... my PCT's now consist of.... 6oxo, tribullus, alpha male, & tamoxifen.... effects of the on cycle i've felt seemed like plenty of fluid retention.... which was is quite notable when i stop the cycle & go on the PCT.... hehe.... as far as on cycle.... seems like recovery & strenght gains are quite pronounced.... in my case at least.... & as you well know.... i rather not have the strenght gains.... as this is fairly annoying.... to me at least.... thus during off cycle i take 2 weeks off of the gym compleltely.... & just plain be plain lazy while continuing to eat like i do with junk & healthy protein rich food & NO.... my size does not drastically change with the gains i've made during the on cycle.... so after 2 weeks i go back on & lift more.... at this point.... very light weight & lotsa reps.... my rationale for this is so that my muscles get weak once more.... i do dislike being small & be able to put up really really heavy loads.... AAAAH.... ANNOYING.... ooooh & yeah.... when i did 1st start i have noticed quite a bit of hair coming off of my head.... but ceased later on.... also noticed a bit of gyno starting thus i used tamoxifen.... & sure did help.... & another thing.... during my on cycle.... i stay on tamoxifen.... 5 mg.... then up it to 10 during my off cycle for PCT.... okay.... anywhoes.... back to my purpose at hand....

I am now thinking of going into injectables.... now.... this is what i have in mind.... now.... remember i am just thinking about it at the moment.... so my thoughts....

M1T cycle for 8 weeks.... then NO PCT.... straight into injectables.... Testosterone Enanthate 500mg (testosterone depo) & Deca 400mg (nandrolone decanoate) for 10 weeks while also being on Nolvadex 10-20mg (tamoxifen) per day for 14-15 weeks....

& yes.... that means.... as soon as i finish M1T for 8 weeks i would be on tamoxifen 10mg & would continue to be on it while on the injectables & about 4-5 weeks thereafter....

& i know M1T does do a number on the liver.... so please do hit that topic as well.... & as to how going straight into injectables would casue or not cause more damage....

now.... how does that look.... rediculous or is it somewhat an okay idea.... i would like to hear from the experts, experienced, knowledgeable as well as the skeptics.... both optimist as well as pessimist are very welcomed.... as a matter of fact i would like to hear from everyone that would like to share their thoughts.... :)

My original stats & post from way back if you wanna know a bit more about me:

!!!!PRO HORMONE NEWBIE!!!!

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223



I SHALL AWAIT YOUR RESPONSES.... THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!!!!

[ThinkinBig]

dude 8 weeks on m1t and than injectables? do some frekain research. At the most i would say a 4 week m1t kickstart while injecting because thats about how long it takes for test e to start to kick in. Honestly though, i think shoudl lay off anything hormonal for at least a couple years, and get your training and diet spot on because it seems you obviously do not have them as such.

[solomon1979]

You guys need to quit feeding the trolls.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/solomon1979/Trolls2.jpg

[Justfreakindoit]

"i like it fried in butter.... maybe 1 to 2 sticks of butter!!!!" :eek:

That sounds like some good southern cookin! wow!

[KinesitionChirossage]

I don't think that any 140 pound individual has/should have any right whatsoever taking PHs/AAS/DS. There should be a minimum weight requirement for all those that take PHs.

[MAXX]

wells thanks for your personal opinions peeps.... but my major purpose is to obtain some pretty useful information that i can scrutinize & broaden my knowledge.... & aweeee.... not wanting to feed the trolls.... then trolls will remain trolls.... heck after all.... i think everyone at some point was a troll.... i don't think anyone was born an all knowing almighty individual.... hehe.... anyways i have done my share of research.... & everyone's body is pretty different.... & i am no exception.... just that mines is quite more different than any.... & hehe @ JUST it aint southern.... it's called plain filipino cooking.... all fatty & pretty much a heart attack waiting to happen.... okays.... here a slight recap of myself.... my caloric intake though high as it may seem.... & to many just the looks or whiff of what i eat would make em gain tons of weight & possibly become fat assess.... which i wouldnn't mind.... hehe.... however in my case.... IT DOES NOT PACK ON AS MUCH WEIGHT.... not with me at least.... heck i'd be pretty much okay with things if i gained fat even.... but it as you see.... from when i 1st started.... i have not gained that much nor did my size really changed.... can't explain it myself.... but just plain weird on my end.... & yes.... my intake has been consistent.... & has now dropped in between 3000 - 4000 kcal per day.... try supplementing yourselves with 2 cal HN.... that's the double calorie milk 475 Kcal on it's own look at its stats on my food breakdown.... much higher than ensure plus.... not many can get their hands on them things either.... not unless your in the medical field or have some connection.... its a pretty an expensive supplement also.... does not come cheap.... with that supplement along with a normal food intake would likely increase many peoples body weight.... but not mines.... a medical wonder.... NAAH.... not really.... just my body adjusts its metabolisim accordingly i guess.... so.... am i dicking peoples around.... nopes.... not at all.... not my intention.... especially if i am wanting to get some useful information.... anyways.... i will say that i have conducted an experiment of my own.... so same foods eaten & yet different person.... my cousin & friend.... for 1 month.... what did i gain.... basically not even 1 pound.... them.... go figure.... one of them 20 & the other 25.... no was not all muscle.... mostly fat.... heeh.... was all on my cost.... was a pretty damn expensive experiment.... whew.... feeding 2 peoples the same as me.... anyways.... going back.... & as far as lifting weights.... lets just say i've seen & have worked out with peoples that have gained quite a bit of mass with my program.... but me.... nopes.... not really.... just the annoyance of strength gains.... so i tweak my workouts.... though i did gain about 2 inches with my calves.... YAAYS.... & ooooh yeah.... i was quite natural for a long time.... & have seen others in the similar situation pass me up so to speak with gaining mass.... & my diet was pretty much in gear for weight gain.... but just wasn't happening.... so with the PH experiment.... i actually gained quite a bit of weight.... which is nice.... even fat around the waist i'd be okay with at this point.... hehe.... no joke too okay.... anyhows.... going back to the topic at hand....

there are prettty ridiculous dosings out there.... far more rediculous than what i am taking as well as pondering to embark upon.... pro bods are just plain from another planet with their stuff.... but i aint one of them.... so there....

so 4 weeks M1T @ THINK.... & you gave your rationale.... humnnnn.... nice.... but okays.... so your saying to still be on it as i start the injectables.... you sees.... i've also thought & heard about that from other peeps as well.... but nice input....

so here.... lemme just mention.... orals are different from injectables.... in respect to 1st pass effect of the liver.... as injectables do go straight to the systemic circulation & thus bypassing the liver & produces a pronounced greater bioavailability in the body.... so.... & yeah.... M1T packs a great whallop.... but the methyl is what makes its bioavailability greater in the blood stream as compared to non methylated compounds.... althought that comes at no cost as you all know.... but if not.... then this goes out to the trolls out there who are like myself and are in search of some information.... so.... there....

& yes yes.... there are peoples that feel some individuals should not even touch or have a taste of any type of hormones for body building or sports for that matter.... & i as well do have my standards on when one should start as well as my reasons.... heck.... if it were up to me.... i think it would be useful to many if there was a mg per kilogram dosing standard.... but hey.... many of these if not all of these compounds are experimental.... meaning the true testing does not end in the laboratory but it starts with us the consumers.... so anyways.... i should end my ranting at this time.... hehe.... but....

as i've mentioned before.... all your thoughts & feelings are welcome.... but please do give rationales.... as i am in search to broaden my knowledge in this community forum that has quite a bunch of knowledgeable individuals....

THANK YOU!!!! :)

[ThinkinBig]

if you are dead set on doing an injectable cycle kicked off with m1t do what i said, start your injections whiel taking the m1t teh first 4 weeks. That way you gain off the m1t and then stop the m1t's after the 4 week mark which is when the test e should start to kick in.

I'm going to once again state though that no matter what body type you are, if you arent gaining weight you simply arent eating enough. Even if I don't believe you are eating 4k - 5k callories a day, jsut up w/e amount you are eating and you will see gains