protien

[Phxvan1]

when is the best times to take protien?

[snakemw]

i normally take it when i wake up, pre and post workout, right before bed and sometimes between meals if i get real hungry.

[garb]

i agree with snake...the only difference is i dont usually take any pre-workout. i like to have a meal instead.

[SNS8778]

I always take a shake pre and post workout. I usually take one before bed as well. Other than that, I take it with any of my meals that I do not get enough protein from whole foods at.

[Trans_Isomer]

1) Upon awakening

2) Preworkout (I usually do about hour before workout w/carbs allowing some time for a semi empy stomach for my other supps)

3) Postworkout (Preferably Isolate)

4) Before Bed (Protein blend is best here, casein, whey, milk)

[dinoiii]

The pre-workout realm remains something all "authorities" continue to cite the Tipton, et al. study on being superior in the anabolic realm...There are many reasons why this is BLATANTLY WRONG.

2 hours as an average to allow appropriate processing and accurate shunting of BV fluid volume. The body has and always will work as a whole unit,...never forget ALL its parts.

[Trans_Isomer]

I disagree, but what do you suggest for the preworkout period?

[dinoiii]

You're welcome to disagree, but it has been supported in a very recent study what I have suggested all along. Nonetheless - define what you are calling "pre-workout!" There are different definitions that cover a heck of a lot of ground. Hehe, this is but one reason the Tipton, et al. doesn't pan out ... and so it goes...

[Trans_Isomer]

You're welcome to disagree, but it has been supported in a very recent study what I have suggested all along. Nonetheless - define what you are calling "pre-workout!" There are different definitions that cover a heck of a lot of ground. Hehe, this is but one reason the Tipton, et al. doesn't pan out ... and so it goes...

I will write out a long respone here in a little bit, (Damn homework! ;)) on why I disagree.

Preworkout timing.. 1 hour before workout

1) What do you suggest taking for this time period
2) Are you suggesting a empty stomach is optimal for workout?
3) What are you thoughts on BCAA's taken during workout to prevent protein breakdown/ muscle damage?

[SNS8778]

I think in terms of agreeing or disagreeing on pre-workout protein shakes, I didnt even go off of the Tipton thing.

I went simply by my personal experience that I have gotten better results since I have started doing it and so do many people.

Pre-Workout shakes are something that can always be debated many different ways, but the fact remains (and many people forget) that different things and strategies work different for different people. Everyones body is different and will respond differently to different protocols. For me, its hard to put on muscle, and I can say that doing a pre-workout shake has definately helped me.

I understand both opinions here and can only offer my personal input from experience.

[dinoiii]

Unfortunately, I am at the hospital currently and away from more perhaps indicative rationale. You rationed it out nicely Steve and as I said, by all means - disagree...I continue to state, however, that you would benefit from an empty belly in the physiologic sense (2 hours pre-workout) for accurate transit times - btw: THIS IS AN AVERAGE AMONGST EVERYONE. Its as close to non-blanket.

I am a firm supporter of the fact if all else is well (and this means all meals, workout lengths, etc...) - this protocol is superior. If one is to purport benefits using this protocol, they have not give an accurate crack at 2-hour post prandium and that being said - there may be deficiencies in other areas, but I know this to be a sensitive subject abound.

I have written at great lengths about this in the past - there may even be a post on this forum from some time ago. If not anything, perhaps a revisitation of info like that would encourage intelligent conversation.

That being said, I remain stubborn on this position.

[dinoiii]

Started digging a little and this is one I stumbled on...unfortunately, I never concluded this piece on this site, so alas I will have to keep digging...it has been a long time since I thought about this one so my apologies in advance:

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396&highlight=Workout+Supplementation

[snakemw]

Started digging a little and this is one I stumbled on...unfortunately, I never concluded this piece on this site, so alas I will have to keep digging...it has been a long time since I thought about this one so my apologies in advance:

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396&highlight=Workout+Supplementation

so are you going to finish that thread or just try to find another one? the read was very interesting would like to see the second part.

[dinoiii]

I never actually wrote a second one, but if people actually liked the first, I will continue with it in the article section. Demand would dictate and there aren't copyright issues to boot.

[Trans_Isomer]

Why the preworkout/during workout shake?

There are many, many benefits of consuming a protein shake both preworkout and during your workout. What do I define a Preworkout shake as? Each person may tweak their own preworkout shake ingredients a little, but I personally go with 1 scoop of Cytosport Cytogainer and 1 Scoop Syntrax Matrix with 20g of Avant Labs Supercarb. Basically a Protein + Carb drink. When do I drink this? I typically consume this preworkout shake 60-45 minutes before my workout. During my workout, I consume BCAA's if I have the money, but if im a little low on some dough, I go with a scoop of protein and a gatorade. Now, we look to the reasons why...

1) Raise of Insulin levels
-Drinking a shake preworkout/during your workout has many benefits. One is the raise of insulin levels. Insulin is very anabolic, and actually blunts the raise of the catabolic hormone cortisol (1).

2) Prevents muscle breakdown
-These shakes will help supply a large amount of amino acids to help prevent muscle breakdown. I think Layne states it best in his own words "Research has shown that during bouts of intense training, no matter how full glycogen stores are, some amino acids are taken from the amino pool and used for ATP production (energy). If your amino pool is depleted, your body will actually catabolize muscle tissue to help make ATP. Taking a shake containing whey protein which is rich in branch chain amino acids which make up a large portion of the amino acid pool will ensure that your amino pool is replenished and muscle tissue will not be catabolized. (1)"

Some also state the problem of digestion, in which blood flow must be redirected from the muscle to aid in. However, this problem is solved as diluting your shake with 1-2 liters of water will solve this (1).

Essential Amino Acids (EAA's)

Essential amino acids are the ones that must be taken in by your diet, your body cannot make these on its own. This includes the amino acids:

1) Histidine
2) Isoleucine
3) Methionine
4) Phenylalanine
5) Threonine
6) Tryptophan
7) Valine
8) Leucine

Now whats so special about these amino acids? Well, for one they increase protein synthesis above basal levels, also reducing muscle soreness.

-"Ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused (2)."
-Also note "Nonessential amino acids are not necessary for stimulation of net muscle protein balance (6 g EAAs provides double the response of 3 g EAA and 3 g of nonessentail AA) (3)".
-Also, "Consumption of 40 g EAAs after heavy resistance training results in a change from net protein degradation (-50 +/- 23 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) to net protein synthesis (29 +/- 14 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1; P < 0.05) (2)".
-Also "A 0.15 g/kg/h AA infusion for 3 h in 6 normal men increases muscle protein synthesis by 141%. After exerecise this increase is 291%. Muscle protein breakdown was not significantly affected (4)".
-"3.6 g AAs before and after exercise + 2 doses/d for 4 d after the exercise suppresses the rise in serum creatine kinase activity. This also diminished muscle soreness (7)".

Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA's)

Branched Chain Amino acids are a very special bunch of amino acids. The BCAA's consist of the amino acids
-Leucine
-Isoleucine
-Valine

BCAA's help prevent muscle breakdown/damage. Lets look at some of the studies done on them.

-"It is known that BCAA oxidation is promoted by exercise (8)".
-"Since 1978 a variety of studies have been performed in humans where BCAAs or leucine alone was administrated in varying amounts and durations. An anabolic effect of leucine and the branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) on reduction of muscle protein breakdown was found in these studies (9)".
-7.5-12 g BCAAs during intense exercise (a 30 km cross-country race and a full marathon) increases BCAA plasma and muscle concentration. In the placebo group plasma BCAA decreased and left muscle levels unchanged. The placebo group showed a 20-40% increase in the muscle concentration of aromatic AAs. BCAA supplementation prevented this increase in aromatic AAs in both muscle and plasma. These results suggest that an intake of BCAAs during exercise can prevent or decrease the net rate of protein degradation caused by heavy exercise (10).
-77 mg BCAAs/kg supplementation before exercise resulted in a doubling (P < 0.05) of the arterial BCAA levels before exercise (339 +/- 15 vs. 822 +/- 86 microM). During the 60 min of exercise, the total release of BCAA was 68 +/- 93 vs. 816 +/- 198 mumol/kg (P < 0.05) for the BCAA and control trials, respectively. Furthermore, the increased intramuscular and arterial BCAA levels before and during exercise result in a suppression of endogenous muscle protein breakdown during exercise (12).
-"We hypothesized that BCAA supplementation would reduce the serum activities of intramuscular enzymes associated with muscle damage. 120 minutes exercise on a cycle ergometer significantly increases serum creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) up to 5d postexercise.
12 g BCAAs for 14d in 16 men (the exercise on day 7) significantly reduces this change in LDH and CK (13).

BCAA's help aid in fat loss

-"BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance (14).
-Twenty-five competitive wrestlers restricted their caloric intake (28 kcal.kg-1.day-1) for 19 days. A high-BCAA diet provided 4 kg of weight loss, and 17,3% decrease in fat loss. There was no change in aerobic (VO2max) (p > 0.75) and anaerobic capacities (Wingate test) (p > 0.81), and in muscular strength (p > 0.82). (15).


Now as you can see, there is very, very good evidence of the positive effects of amino acids relating to resistance training. Now why only consume them post workout? Are you not in/entering a depleted state while working out? During your workout, catabolic activities are causing protein and muscles to be broken down. While we are training, we want to decrease how much protein and muscle is broken down, but also crank up protein synthesis. thus enhancing our recovery efforts. Consuming a preworkout shake ensure a steady amount of amino acids are being used by the body to prevent/reduce muscle damage. Consuming a shake during your workout will help stave off catabolism, while helping to kickstart protein synthesis. It has been shown in studies that in the absence of food, protein breakdown exceeds protein synthesis (2,5,6). Thus, the reason for the preworkout/workout shake. Would it be better to consume these amino acids in free form? Yes, If you can afford a EAA or BCAA mix, then this is much better, as non essential amino acids (NEAA's) are not as important in this time frame. But, will a protein shake still be effective? Yes :)

A little anecdotal...

For me personally, I am a definite beleiver in the preworkout/during workout shake. Whenever I miss a preworkout shake, I have lower energy levels during the workout, and need more rest between sets. Ever since incorporating a preworkout shake into my regimen, energy levels, recovery, and gains all have increased. Now im off to consume my shake... :)

-Trans_Isomer


References:
1) Layne Nortons Q & A
Layne Norton is a PhD candidate in the area of nutritional science specializing in amino acid utilization at the University of Illinois. Layne received his BS in Biochemistry from Eckerd College in 2004.
2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10198297&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
3) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12217881&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9252488&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
5) Philips, S.M., K.D. Tipton, A. Aarsland, S.E. Wolf, and R.R. Wolfe. Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am. J. Physiol. 273:E99-E107, 1997.
6)Philips, S.M., K.D. Tipton, A. Ferrando, and R.R. Wolfe. Resistance training reduced the acute exercise-induced increase in muscle protein turnover. Am. J. Physiol. 276:E124, 1999.
7) http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/6/1583S
8) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12501002&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
9) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15930473&query_hl=1
10) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1481685&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
11) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7810616&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
12) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7810616&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
13) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=11125767&dopt=Abstract
14) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10418071&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink
15) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9059905&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_ExternalLink

[dinoiii]

Again - see article section --- I would actually say - NEVER site Tipton, et al. in this argument if you are to expect success!!!

[Trans_Isomer]

Well tipton is only one of many of who I have cited ;)

[dinoiii]

Yes, but trans, Tipton and his cohorts account for citations 2-6. And the remaining essentially center on BCAA supplementation and its benefits with caloric restriction which is common-sensical in nature - if you put more aminos in the equation when you are calorically deprived, you get muscle sparing.

I will cite a piece from one of the abstracts you have supplied.

"Consumption of BCAA (30 to 35% leucine) before or during endurance exercise may prevent or decrease the net rate of protein degradation, may improve both mental and physical performance and may have a sparing effect on muscle glycogen degradation and depletion of muscle glycogen stores. However, leucine supplementation (200 mg/kg bodyweight) 50 minutes before anaerobic running exercise had no effect on performance."

We know my thoughts on .... GASP .... cardio and yeah, such a catabolic activity having benefit that doesn't translate when you up the anty with anaerobic runs (i.e. - sprints) makes plain sense. I agree with the anticatabolic effects of BCAAs...I have suggested it even in post-operative times, but for a very complex rationale dealing with the liver and something I cannot get too involved in description of at the present time unfortunately!

[B-natural]

Well after reading this thread it seems trans has changed his tune on the pre-workout realm, yes/no? so trans do you still support the pre-workout drink, as u have recently said it inhibits IGF-1, as well as others in a recent post