what is "pct"

[JONSON BULLARD]

??????????????????

[dinoiii]

Just what does it stand for???


Post-Cycle Therapy

(make sense?)

[italionstallionl]

its the time after their cycle they go to therapists to sort everything out

[Wardog]

Post Cycle therapy, or the time you take certain compounds to bring your boys back online. If you don't know it, I strongly suggest you research and learn more before trying PHs or AAS

[skip]

what do you use for pct of ph or as?

[Ragin Cajin]

6 oxo seems to be a favorite.

[Wardog]

For PHs, you can use 6OXO or our Formadrol V2 product, both are good for recovery, especially considering that PH cycles (methyls) tend to be shorter in duration (14 to 28 days max).

Now for a real AAS cycle, I would not use either of these IMO. You could use Formadrol V2 DURING a cycle, for estrogen control, but 6OXO would not be as good for this (Patrick Arnold himself admitted this)

When it comes to a 8 to 12 week typical AAS cycle, I would recommend HGC and novla or clomid. My PCT tends to correspond a lot with Swale over on 'ology, who is a sports medicine doctor. What I would follow is this:

HCG 250-300 IUs 2-3X a week (I personally do 250 IUS EOD) for the last 2 weeks of your cycle, and one week post cycle, this could be extended by a few days, depending on the compound used (longer acting esters for example)

Novla at 20mg/day or clomid at 50mg/day for 30 days after last inject, extended again for an additional week or so if longer acting esters are used.

For compounds that are very hard on the HTPA (tren/deca) I would suggest extending PCT to 6 full weeks.

There will be a rebound when discontinuing PCT, so I like to taper off either clomid or novla over a few days. With the liquid compounds, this is very easy.

It may sound like a completely shameless pimp, but actually it is not, when I also suggest using our Dermasize product during PCT. It will not affect recovery, and anyone who has used it post cycle has reported keeping a larger percentage of their gains, if not actually adding a few pounds.

[dinoiii]

Now for a real AAS cycle, I would not use either of these IMO. You could use Formadrol V2 DURING a cycle, for estrogen control, but 6OXO would not be as good for this (Patrick Arnold himself admitted this)


I bet that was hard to get him to do. :)

[dinoiii]

Hey wardog, where did you learn of the practice of hCG injections?

I really think beyond the fetal period that this is of no benefit. It was rumored that this was being practiced....I can't see the non-fetal Leydig cells beyond the critical period gaining anything out of this type of pracitce.

[dinoiii]

I think you could be just as successful with 10mg Nolva (break the pills in half)....I have seen this with clinical tests and preached this numerous times.


I do agree with your Clomid dosing....though I would prefer the Nolva.



The rest of your comments I agree with but the Dermasize, but perhaps not for long...I have 2 candidates who would be willing and will be ending their cycles in 2.5 weeks....I will have a Baltimore, MD address ready about mid-week next week and will keep you posted. And certainly the DA forum will get a nice full long report.

[Wardog]

Hey wardog, where did you learn of the practice of hCG injections?

I really think beyond the fetal period that this is of no benefit. It was rumored that this was being practiced....I can't see the non-fetal Leydig cells beyond the critical period gaining anything out of this type of pracitce.

Bro, I just do sub-q injects with the hCG. I had many long correspondance with Swale, over at steroidology, who is a practicing MD specializing in sports medicine, working with many athletes who use AAS.

I personally do not know all the science behind it, to get technical, I would suggest you correspond with him, he is a great guy to talk to. I just know from personal experience, using low dose hCG during my cycle keeps the "boys" from shrinking, and seems to keep me from getting that irritable "burned out" feeling about week 6 into the cycle.

Before using hCG, I would find myself getting rather depressed for the first 2-3 weeks post cycle, since using it, I do not seem to have any depression issues even when using the same anabolic compounds in a cycle. I also find that I recover much faster. Based on blood tests I had done after one test and tren cycle, without hCG, after 5 weeks my test levels were still about 120ng/dL below my pre-cycle baseline. It was a full 8 weeks before I had test levels that returned to pre-cycle baseline.

Using hCG in the manner I described above, my week 5 post cycle test levels were at slightly above pre-cycle baseline, so a considerably faster recovery, using the exact same anabolic compounds, test and tren at approxamatly the same dosages and durations.

Now I realize test levels can vary throughout the day, and my testing was not 100% clinical data what you would like to see, but I post it just for your own knowledge and information, perhaps conversations with Swale would be more fruitful on the scientific side.

[dinoiii]

Thanks for the contact...I will attempt to get into contact with Swale.

[ghostwheel]

I leave it to Dinoiii to try to follow the science of Hcg and whether it actually works. I have no opinion as yet, though i have read what literature there is on the topic.

Just for the record though Wardog; Do you yourself jab the needle in the glutius max? Ouch! :shock:

Makes you want to stay on cycle longer.

:shock:

[Wardog]

Actually no, I have never done a glute shot. I stick to quads, delts and tris primarily. hCH injects are sub-q so they are a walk in the park.

Tyical AAS will go thru a 25 gauge 1 incher just fine, while slin, hCG IGF-1 will go nicely thru a slin pin.

Once you lose your virginity at pinning, you learn it really isn't bad at all.


Dinoiii, Bill Lewellen, author if Anabolics 2005 also recently said he felt hCG was the most important compound in PCT. He may be another resource you wish to tap from a scientific perspective

[dinoiii]

I agree wardog...

I still don't like the practice, however. I have been reading furiously and looking at anything - even what I feel to be erroneous reports since Thursday regarding the situation because it doesn't make sense to me - but I digress.

People will do it nonetheless because it has appeared to gain momentum and I am convinced that people don't know if there is much benefit and there have been > 1 dozen DIFFERENT dosing schedules I have read reported by the "gurus" in the practice which is an absolute disgrace.

[ghostwheel]

So you don't inject deep into muscle? Just below the skin? Yeah not as bad I suppose, but I will still wait for Dinoiii to follow the science of it before trying to scrounge some.

Just because everyone else is doing it is not in and of itself a validator for HCG.

By the way, (off topic,sorry) wouldn't the methoxy in Dermasize be good on cycle to control cortisol levels, not just pct?

[Wardog]

Dinoiii, I agree about the one million dosing chedules. I personally chose to go with swales information, because I know he works with real life athletes on a day to day basis, therefore, IMO has a lot more real-world knowledge than the "scientists" out there in my humble opinion.

Too many armchair gurus, (and I include some of the big names in this industry) read a report of a compound used on hypogonadal hampsters suffering from malnutrition subjected to a diet of fish scales, and use that to extrapolate data into the real world on HUMANS. I read the science, but I also look to people who deal with real life circumstances. That for me, is why I trust swale and his dosing schedules, I am not saying they are the end all and be all, I am saying for me they work.

I will give you a perfect case and point, ecdysterones. Ask many of the industry gurus, and they will swear it is a useless compound in humans. Our scientist told me the issues were duration of action primarily when it came to this compound, and that transdermal delivery would solve it (thats why it is in Dermasize)

Being torn between the gurus, (I personally used to think it was a useless compound also) I sourced a 99% pure version, mixed it into my favorite oil/solvent mix (Dazed propriatary formula) ran it thru a .45 and a .22 and started daily injections at 100mg/day while cutting out every single other supplement (except my daily multivitamins)

To my suprise, I saw a drastic decrease in muscle soreness, and my strength increases went up far faster than my typical strength progressions. (FYI, I have kept detailed workout logs for the last 4 years, so I have fairly reliable data on my own body) I also saw increased size gains in the 6 weeks I ran it. This lead me to believe our scientist, and so it is in dermasize.

I simply use this as an example of where you need to research the science, but also, get data from real world users because the two do not always coincde.

If I recall correctly, there was a TON of scientific data on HMB, and according to the science papers, EQ is the most perfect steroid ever created for maximum anabolism. Unfortunatly, the real world has shown both cases to be far from the truth.

[dinoiii]

Wow Warren,

you threw a ton of info out there. I really have to kick you an email. I am in the midst of packing up everything for my move to Baltimore, MD and the northeast suffered a huge winter storm this weekend so I am VERY busy.

I am still very interested in getting in touch with Swale about his dosing schedules. That is intriguing, b/c if I should be giving it to patients or considering suggesting it, then I really need to know a few things.

With Ecdysterones...I could feel you here as there is a website who preaches against the use of ecdysterones because in mammals, there is NO ecdysterone receptor. Now - this is fine, however, for them to suggest that all effects of all molecular compounds are receptor-mediated - this is terrible science. Btw: I LOVE the effect of ecdysterones on blood chemistries!!!

And you obviously would NEVER hear me preaching info without running different molecular tests on patients ingesting certain compounds - I can actually extract labs and post them here from different individuals (names excluded for obvious reasons) and show you why I base many of the claims I do here. Like I said I have 2 guys who are willing to use your Dermasize in the Baltimore area whom I would monitor on many levels.
You will get a detailed report.

The problem with real world NOT equalling scientific data in my opinion stems not so much from the two not coinciding, but TERRIBLE SCIENCE to begin. Recall that after some time, it finally was realized that there were differences in response to HMB for novice trainees versus say you and I. As far as EQ - uhhh I am assuring there is NO science to support a vetrinary steroid in humans that would be adequately funded - therefore, with that argument I certainly agree with you.

In summary: I do not say that I ever truthfully listen to all science hypotheses, but GOOD RESEARCH to support the hypotheses is what is the problem and lagging on most occasions.

[Wardog]

Dinoiii,

Unfortunatly, that lack of good research will always be the case for the most part.

Very very few studies are done on male bodybuilders for the purpose of showing muscle gain, fat loss or body recomposition, for the simple reason being, there is NO money to be made there for big pharma.

Now for a supp company to do one is useless IMO also from a financial perspective. The birth of the internet has created a wealth of armchair scientists who will completely pick apart your study, tell you the 20 different factors you didnt consider, etc etc etc.

Combine this with the shady marketing of a few supp companies, who always tout "clinical research" in their ads for their sub-par products, and as a supplement company, you could not win going this route IMO.

From my perspective, why on Gods green earth, would I sponsor a clinical trial and spend anywheres from $25K - $70K, when the armchair scientists on the boards would shred it, and in print ads, the consumer is already numb to these "clinical studies" thanks to certain supp companies like muscle tech.


Now take pharma compounds like novla or clomid or HCG or letrozole or Armidex, which are mostly designed for use in women, and you are going to narrow that window even more.

Thus we all do the best we can I guess, we form our best hypothesis based on available information, then test that hypothesis. Just call me lab rat...lol.

[dinoiii]

That was a very accurate post wardog and one where I agree in its entirety! So I digress.

[ghostwheel]

SO it seems I could scour and search every Body builder type forum for medical opinions on pct compounds or bodybuilder compounds, and it would all be fruitless because there IS NO REAL VALID RESEARCH. Like I said in a previous post:>>

It is like digging through a cyberpace internet garbage dump of thought and ideas hoping to find a single fact that might result in a moment of clarity that would suggest a rational course of action.

:idea:

Happy digging.

:shock:

[Wardog]

Ghost, you hit the nail on the head.

The only exception I ever saw was a very good study done on men who had low test levels for extended periods of time due to AAS abuse.

That clinical study showed dosing clomid at 50mg/day for 8 weeks restored much of their natty test production.

That is one of the very few studies I ever saw that was specificly something an AAS using bodybuilder could use without extrapolating the data, or taking leaps of faith.

As I said, it is slim pickins out there for exactly what it is WE are looking to accomplish

[ghostwheel]

I only figured that out after hours and hours of endless digging.

:shock:

[Wardog]

LOL..oh, it gets better bro.

Now start investigating herbs with hundreds of years of tradition in chineese or other nationalities history, and determine truth from fiction...it gets better and better..lol!

[ghostwheel]

Speaking of herbs, ever tried cordyceps for pct ot have any reasearch on this herb at all? I think the main active ingfredients are adenosine and cordycepic acid plus beta Glucan (polysaccharide)?

I have personally had good results, but they vary from batch to batch and brand to brand.

Thanks for all you great products by the way which my cupboard is full of.

:?:

[BOUDREAUX0609]

WHAT EXACTLY IS AAS?

[max von]

The section that you are in

max von