What age for Gear?

[Anonymous]

Whats the youngest age anyone sould use gear?

[Haus]

I think the youngest any one should consider gear is 21. How old are you Gat Man? What are you thinking about taking?

[Richard186]

21 and at least 2 years of training experience!
there are many ups but you must also realize that there is a very dramatic down part also. what are you thinking of using and if so read up first. I recommend "Building the Perfect Beast" you can find it at a reasonable price at mesomorphosis.com!

[Observer_1011]

21, 2 or more years of training experience, and a good understanding of the risks (both short and long tern) involved with this decision.

[dinoiii]

Phew - rough question.

I am assuming you met everyone's aformentioned requirements (21 yrs. + > 2 yrs. training experience). I am more conservative and if you want to try some mild PH's at this time, maybe ease your way in prior to the ban with them. Good "mild" PH's include non-methylated variety.

If you have been training > 5 yrs. consistently, I would say give it a shot, but be careful if you have never used and are attempting to design a good beginner cycle.

I am also a realist. If you want to get big, and you want to get big yesterday, I know my prior statements mean less. As I assume this to be the case and also assume this is why you have asked this question at this time, you are ready in your mind and you are just looking for the universal "ok" to help rationalize what you have pretty much already come to terms with in your head.

Make that first cycle count ---> an age as in your original post with less damage on your HPA axis is likely more close to 25 yrs, however. At this point your hypothalamus has already reduced its production of GnRH by roughly 35% the levels of 16-22 yrs. This too, however, is on a case-by-case basis.

[roiderkid305]

fuk that iam 16 iam waiting tell iam almost 18 to jump on a realy cycle iam take finaplix i would have jumped on a cycle but iam no hurry cuz iam benching 100 pounds over my weight

[dinoiii]

roiderkid - I am very sleepy right now, but would have to insist on figuring out what your rush is and why you feel you need it?

What is 100lbs. > than your weight?

Obviously it is not strength you lack....?

[roiderkid305]

i gained weight iam at 159 and i bench 180 mr smart guy

[dinoiii]

I will take the "mr smart guy" thing as a complement.

and at 18, using anabolics is "in a rush" btw...screw up your HPA and see what rush you'll be in.

the only thing is I know you already have made up your mind...I just encourage against this more than not smoking or drinking.

And your initial post did not include notice of your "weight" gain - #1 - i hope it was muscle, #2 - hopefully your bench went up and you still meet label claims of "benching over 100 lbs your weight." (yeah that was the sarcastic part - feel free to insult and I will take it that way this time)

[roiderkid305]

yo cool dude iam 16 i weigh 159 bench 280 iam 5,7 so if u say iam lacking w/e i kno a lot of ppl my weight and age that cant do that

[dinoiii]

I am not saying the strength you possess is not pretty decent. What I am saying is that strength does NOT always yield size which is your apparent gripe. I only say this b/c I would question your desire to use chemical enhancement at a young age potentially limiting future gains down the line, provided you potentially mess up your Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Axis.

I acknowledged an understanding I had at your desire to be big and as quickly as possible, however. I also know you probably (or at least hopefully) have put some time and thought into your decision and I am then assured you will make an informed decision understanding what potential setbacks you can wind up with.

At 16, you probably listen to my words and exclaim, "What a bunch of shit!" I can't blame your discontent either, yet sadly despite the proclaimation I have laid out in preaching on this forum and others that steroids certainly have their place in our quest for "hugeness" that the commonplace figure would likely not comprehend, I too simply urge - that there is plenty of time to do this whole thing properly. Sorry, I still say that > 5yrs. of solid training and proper diet with occasional supplementation where needed is all that would warrant a "justified" decision to begin a cycle with little to no concern. As far as your initial post, that too also includes ONLY if you have reached an age greater than 25 - however, provided you met the 5 year suggested, I could likely see you getting away with it at 23 - but you would NEVER get my recommendation to begin younger than that.

By my estimation...if you are 16 and even if you were training for 5 years, this would make you 11 when you started and I know that you were not as dedicated at that age as you may think - though you have never used those words. Well, at least I hope you weren't that serious at 11 - if so, you have lead a pretty deprived, albeit short, life.

[max von]

excellent post dinoiii i sure hope that he listens to you cause in this day and age to many kids are going for the kick size but are not caring for what they will look like in 10-15yrs. roiderkid305 think of what you body is going to look like and feel like 10-15 yrs from now and the damage that you have done by then you could have kids a wife and know your system is all screwed up because of a mistake you made in your teens. Not trying to preach good that your asking question. Just be careful


max von

[italionstallionl]

i just dont know why you would even want to try ph's right now. i thought the entire idea of lifting was to get your body in peak condition not only for right now, but for the years to come as well. if you do this you would most likely be damaging your body down the road which would nullify all the hard work you put in now. it just doesnt make sense to me, stick with protein and creatine

[roiderkid305]

iam juice when iam 18 thats in 2 years
ever 1 all ready thinks i droped a cycle
cuz iam benching 280 at 16 and i weigh 159 benching i have my hole body big my legs r the only things lacking i seen like 10 boyz juice up herd of like 5 ppl get fuked up by it and 1 guy i new died and read in anabolic insider like five bodybuilders die i see it this way after u work out for more then a year and u do it like 5 times a week only stop when ur sick like. iam down to face my problems down the road the only reason i havent droped a cycle is that iam all readybig 4 my size iam die big

[italionstallionl]

just like you said you are already big for your age, and very strong for your size, so just stick to what your doing now

[wedgylx]

roiderkid,
I have no problem with you juicing because people as ignorant as you dont deserve reproductive capabilities. I figure this is just Natural Selection at its best. I know those are big words, so if I were you I'd get a dictionary and science book and try to decode my post.

[dinoiii]

Wow - Wedgylx,

You are apparently growing on me b/c I was putting together a similar post - thanks for being the "mean" one. This way I don't have to look like the bad guy.

The truth be told though, you must dumb it down for him. Your post was way too intelligent:

roiderkid, if you give yourself an injection to the side of the head, it may actually improve your English. When you can complete a sentence, consider gear.

[italionstallionl]

i second that

[italionstallionl]

anyone know why gatman's name is yellow in the index for this forum?

[wedgylx]

anyone know why gatman's name is yellow in the index for this forum?

Im not sure....maybe because he's a guest and not a member? The best I can come up with....

[Ragin Cajin]

i just want to say that juicing is a very bad idea. Especially if you just want to get big quick. I did a cycle and immediatly felt the repercussions. You dont want to work out after you are off the juice. It messes with you psychologically. You will get super depressed when you get off. All that will be on your mind is when you will juice again. In the long run you are ruining all that you have going on for you now.

[wedgylx]

Ragin,
great post, and i agree with what you're saying. But I do think juicing has a place in body building. But only when you're mature (physically and mentally), knowledgeable, and VERY well prepared.

[max von]

listen to what these guys are telling you i only wish at 16 i could do the things you can and have the size you have now. This is not a cut on you but we were all 16 once and thought we knew everything. I just hope you think about it first

max von

[Ragin Cajin]

Wedglyx. Juice does have a place in bodybuilding once your mature and understand all that you are getting into like you stated earlier. I just was immature when I did it and want to get the word out. Study up on it to make sure you know what your doing. Get regular blood tests, etc.. Just dont let anything go to chance.

[wedgylx]

Wedglyx. Juice does have a place in bodybuilding once your mature and understand all that you are getting into like you stated earlier. I just was immature when I did it and want to get the word out. Study up on it to make sure you know what your doing. Get regular blood tests, etc.. Just dont let anything go to chance.

Great post Ragin. People can preach all they want but it doesnt mean a thing compared to advice from someone who's been there.

[Ragin Cajin]

I just want to say that this site rocks and all you guys are awesome because you all post such great info. Keep up the good work.

[roiderkid305]

wow think ur smart rite lol
iam 16 so dont feel to smart i dont be looking in the dictionary 4 words to make fun of a 16 year old so dont hate on the young 1 cuz working out is my life just love it so ill juice when i gots 2 like i said die big

[dinoiii]

Perhaps it is ACTUALLY US who need a dictionary to read your posts there roiderkid - great points and if I could understand it, I am certain it was well thought out and you are well-spoken.

Nah I'm just kidding - A little more of an injection to the left lobe as well 'oughta do the trick

(hehe, looked that one up in my dictionary of flaming and everything - pretty good huh?).


Look, seriously you really didn't expect much of an alternative response, did you? I certainly acknowledged I didn't think I was going to change your mind way back at the beginning of this thread. I simply think with the mentality you have, you will ever get a chance to truly experience "big." Perhaps, dying was along the right line though so I will give you that.

[wedgylx]

Perhaps it is ACTUALLY US who need a dictionary to read your posts there roiderkid .

hahaha, whats the matter dinoiii? You don't speak "GANSTA"?

Roiderkid, I have no sympathy for you because I'm pretty close to your age and you're not a "kid" anymore. Your age is no excuse for ignorance. Clearly you're too ignorant to listen to us so hopefully you'll use correct PCT at least. I'm sure you wont. I'm sure your cycle will consist of something like Dbol by itself which will be useless anyways and just cause your body great stress without really giving the results you're looking for.

Your natural test is so high right now all you have to do is work on your diet and supplementation and you'd be golden. But go ahead and pin, Home-boy.

[roiderkid305]

ok w/e iam stop the the fighting cuz thats not the reason i wanted to get on this forum ok and i just wanted to now wat age can i go to a comp 4 bodybuilding

[Ragin Cajin]

You could go right now and enter any teen division. Just be careful with what cycles you do

[roiderkid305]

if i have tattos would it give a less chance 2 win and do they drug test u

[Ragin Cajin]

If you get into a competition that has the word natural in the title than they could very well test you. My buddies did a natural contest and they just got a lie detector test. You want to make sure that if your juicing to stay in one that doesnt claim to be natural or be damn sure that you can pass a lie test or even a drug test. I would personally check out a comp that doesnt claim to be natural. Then they wont test you at all. And about the ink, they sell things that are like body makeup. You basically mask your tats. Thats why you dont see some of the pros tats. Check out the internet for that stuff. I am not sure who sells it or where to find it. Sorry man.

[roiderkid305]

yo good looking out iam wait a year more to go to a comp cuz i need 2 work on the legz and lean out

[max von]

roid kid
a friend of mine did the MR wisconsin all natural and all they did was the lie detector test. The bad part is if the person doing the questioning is any good they can make you lie about your own name

max von

[roiderkid305]

the all natural u means just no anbolics only rite so i can use other shit

[max von]

roidkid

yep just no anabolics anything legal was okay but keep in mind if they do test alot of the PH will show up positive and that would disqualify you

max von

[sarmento41090]

Hi
im 15 and can only bench 100 lbs maybe 110, yea i kno not much at all lol. I would like to at least be able to bench 130 at the least by next football season and I was wondering wat starter steriod some one would reccomemend for me? And all so wats a good workout routine?

[ghostwheel]

Any pro body builder would KILL to have the natural test levels you naturally have in your body just because you are 15. You don't need any steroids to make gains, you just need time, patience, a high protein diet, and a gym to workout regularly.

Taking steroids @ 15 years old would really mess you up for life. Don't do it.

Do incline bench press, decline bench press, flat bench press, and dips. Take 3-4 days working other body parts before you do the chest again.
The best part of your life is just right in front of you . Enjoy it!

:)

[max von]

I agree with ghost you are only 15 yrs old do not mess with your natural system by usuing Anabolics and 130 should be no problem for you

max von

[ghostwheel]

One thing you could check out are all the whey protein powders and whey isolate powders here at DA or your local health store.

Get into making protein smoothies in the blender. I wore out my Oster blender and had to get a cuisinart. If that fails i will break down and buy a vitamix.

That will help you get the protein you need to grow, plus they taste great if you get it right!

Here is my favorite:
Frozen Blackberries
Frozen Blueberries
Ice
Banana
Flax seed oil
EAS vanilla whey protein powder
Organic applejuice
water
small amount of milk

Enjoy!

[roiderkid305]

fuk that roid up iam going take my shit next skool year i been working out 4 like 2 years iam at 160lbs benching 280 15 1/2 inch bys 5/7 height

[easttexasmuscle]

Well, I've never used steroids, only prohormones & other supplements. But if I were to use them, I would monitor the dosage very closely & limit my cycles & use natural supplements in between cycles to maintain what gains I make & to help cleanse my body/organs & to help recover from any detrimental effects of the steroids. I certainly wouldn't use such potent substances at a young age, though. And certainly not so callously. That's just asking for a lot of health problems on down the line. Anyone who's bound & determined to use steroids, however, should most certainly take the time to educate themselves on the substances used. And that education should include knowing how to properly spell & write about what you're using.

[ghostwheel]

Remember roiderkid: The liver is EVIL and must be punished.

The liver is EVIL and must be punished.
The liver is EVIL and must be punished.
The liver is EVIL and must be punished.
The liver is EVIL and must be punished.
The liver is EVIL and must be punished.
The liver is EVIL and must be punished.
The liver is EVIL and must be punished.

Also now that you aren't going to be as tall as you naturally would have been because steroids have adversely affected your bone growth patterns, just get comfortable being short now that you have messed that up too.

[roiderkid305]

ok buddy i kno all the bads of roids iam not a dum ass i kno my basic about steroids i read up on it and have books on it so wat all u ppl tell me isnt new or going scare me but good try just telling u guys

[ghostwheel]

Like the song says:

Live and let die...

[Wes Carnegie]

Hey roidkid,

Are you going to compete this year?

Wes

[roiderkid305]

nope i got a fuking hernia iam see i need 2 get a lot more lean after i got the hernia i said fuk it iam go all out this time, b4 i got my hernia i was benching 300lbs =] at 160lbs body weight, but i lost all that, cuz the hernia and i got sick but ill be back in the game iam do a good deit i hope,

[Wes Carnegie]

Sorry to hear that. Good luck getting back started. I would reccomend that you listen to some of the posts on this particular subject. These guys have given me tips that have helped more than they know. They have been in the game a long time and nothing is better than experience.

Wes

[roiderkid305]

yea i learned a lot working out with other guys at the gym, and finding them sweet work outs that keep u feeeling good the next day =] w/e iam come back hard like i said try 2 start going to comp next summer

[Wes Carnegie]

Well good luck. Keep training hard and stay natural just a little bit longer. Feel free to E-mail me if you need any help.

Wes

[shuttaLCD]

Hey Roider,

I too am only 16..And I have the erge to get on some juice but i am listening to these guys, They know what they are talking about..All they are trying to do is watch out for your own well being....

I think its just a teen thing to want to do roids....But I will wait till i am at least 20...Its not worth ruining your life when you are 16 or 17..Dont be dumb.....Open your eyes...

Nobody on this forum has said for you to do it..You asked for help and i guess you didnt get the answers you were looking for..But HEY i bet there is a REASON...I think we both know what the reason is....

Just be careful man..Listen to what these guys have to say... you weigh 160 and bench 280 thats awesome...you dont need roids you obviously are getting good results on what you are doing..

If you want to lean up and get cut....Get on a good diet and look into Supps. They help alot....

P.S. You dont want to stay 5'7 do you? Let the roids be for now....

[italionstallionl]

Hey Roider,

I too am only 16..And I have the erge to get on some juice but i am listening to these guys, They know what they are talking about..All they are trying to do is watch out for your own well being....

I think its just a teen thing to want to do roids....But I will wait till i am at least 20...Its not worth ruining your life when you are 16 or 17..Dont be dumb.....Open your eyes...

Nobody on this forum has said for you to do it..You asked for help and i guess you didnt get the answers you were looking for..But HEY i bet there is a REASON...I think we both know what the reason is....

Just be careful man..Listen to what these guys have to say... you weigh 160 and bench 280 thats awesome...you dont need roids you obviously are getting good results on what you are doing..

If you want to lean up and get cut....Get on a good diet and look into Supps. They help alot....

P.S. You dont want to stay 5'7 do you? Let the roids be for now....

great post shutta

[max von]

Hey Roider,

I too am only 16..And I have the erge to get on some juice but i am listening to these guys, They know what they are talking about..All they are trying to do is watch out for your own well being....

I think its just a teen thing to want to do roids....But I will wait till i am at least 20...Its not worth ruining your life when you are 16 or 17..Dont be dumb.....Open your eyes...

Nobody on this forum has said for you to do it..You asked for help and i guess you didnt get the answers you were looking for..But HEY i bet there is a REASON...I think we both know what the reason is....

Just be careful man..Listen to what these guys have to say... you weigh 160 and bench 280 thats awesome...you dont need roids you obviously are getting good results on what you are doing..

If you want to lean up and get cut....Get on a good diet and look into Supps. They help alot....

P.S. You dont want to stay 5'7 do you? Let the roids be for now....

good job shutta i am very impressed no one could have said it better then that

max von

[roiderkid305]

i didnt workout for like 3 weeks i thought i was going get a lot weaker, but i didnt i just got a lot more lean iam at 155lbs now still benching 300lbs, iam feeling mad good, just that i still got pain on my lower abs, i been taking ginseng royal jelly and dam that shit works good, keeps ur arms hard like all day, iam try to go to doc like next week cuz my moms out of town, and i got no insurance, but iam get it checked out , after all thats done, o baby iam fuking going all out , thats wat i said to my self i got the hernia, cuz i got realy fuking sad, cuz i couldnt work, and to lose all that hard work like that . but w/e life goes on. iam most likey roid up later on, the only reason i want to is cuz i luv working out so much and iam into it and a lot of old ppl i looked up as i was a lil kid did it. ans sorry if i missed out words lol iam ld =)

[shuttaLCD]

Roider,

Whatever you decide to do be CAREFUL....If you have any problems these guys can help and dont be scared to go to the Dr. if something is very wrong..

Be careful....If you already have a hernia i would definately stay away from juice for a good while...Say you get this one fixed then you start the juice and before you know it it will be back again....

But one last word of advice... You say it in your name roider"kid"305..."kid" your too young man...but at 16 my dad tells me tht i am old enough to make my own decisions..But he also says to stop and look at the conciquences..

Just stop and you be the judge to make the right choice..be careful


Shutta

P.S. By no means was i trying to degrade or flame you in any way shape or form...

[roiderkid305]

thanks man for giving me the help, iam a lot better i started using the belt to work out and that shit works nice, i gained my weight back, but not the size, iam take that superpump 250 buying tomorrow, give me a lil boost, or wat u guys u think i should take, that works real good,

[italionstallionl]

english class usually works real good

:wink:

just kidding bro. anyway, you could try the superpump, but it doesnt get too great of feedback. you could try NO xplode, SNS e2 matrix, or SNS CVM extreme.

[Wes Carnegie]

I agree. I've heard wonderful things about NO explode that makes me want to try it. But I'm too close to contest to take anything related to creatine. Also, make sure that your pre-workout nutrition is good and that you get plenty of starchy complex carbs before hand, or a carb drink.

Wes

[roiderkid305]

omfg pump250 is naste fuk noxplode i couldnt even work out to pumped. my lower abs pain that i thought was a hernia is gone, so iam back in the game but i got stretch marks =[

[italionstallionl]

omfg pump250 is naste fuk noxplode i couldnt even work out to pumped. my lower abs pain that i thought was a hernia is gone, so iam back in the game but i got stretch marks =[

please type in english.....i cant uderstand that.

but im glad you dont have a hernia, thats always good.

[Trans_Isomer]

This guy is just a f*ckin troll, all he does is type 2nd grade bullshit

[Brandon]

i agree, forget taking the supplements, try english 101.

[Wes Carnegie]

Arrogance is a common sign of ignorance. Don't you think?

Wes

[max von]

Arrogance is a common sign of ignorance. Don't you think?

Wes

you hit it right on the head

max von

[Wes Carnegie]

I do what I can. 8) But I really think that he should humble himself and listen a little more... He's not the only short guy in the world that can bench 300 lbs. Hint Hint

Wes

[roiderkid305]

lol :P

[Wes Carnegie]

Roider, Do you ever deadlift?

Wes

[roiderkid305]

nope i tryed it b4 but a long time ago like once but never realy got into it. y u ask

[Wes Carnegie]

Uh huh... If you're looking to gain weight, you need to start doing that. People told me that compound movements that recruit the most mucsle fiber can elevate your body's ability to use testoterone for building muscle.
How true that is, I don't know, but I do know that I started deadlifting a lot for powerlifting this year, and I started looking much more muscular and put on several pounds without changing my diet or supplementation. Not to mention that the strength in my entire body went up dramatically.

Wes

[roiderkid305]

thanks thats a gots to do on my list now, i herd working out ur lower body gives a boost to ur testoterone levels.

[Wes Carnegie]

Yes, it does. The first thing I do on each day, is a powerlift.
Chest day- 5 sets of bench
Leg day- 5 sets of squat
Back day- 5 sets of deads

Wes

[Brandon]

wes, do you pyramid those five sets or just do a flat 5 x 8 or something?

[Wes Carnegie]

I'm kinda old school. I like to pyramid a little bit. I'll start with like 225 with real strict form for 10 reps, and then work to about 495 or so for 4. I always do it first. It really gets my back awake.

Wes

[Wes Carnegie]

Don't freak out, that is my deadlift not my bench. :)

Wes

[italionstallionl]

lol

at first i thought it was your bench and i was beyond impressed

but then i figured out that you said "i always do it first, it really gets my back awake"

so i figured you were talking about deads

still impressive
good work

[Wes Carnegie]

Thanks... I'm just ready to put the weight back on myself. I'm only weighing about 167 now. It's really a mental obstacle.

Wes

[roiderkid305]

dam i cant pass 160 with out looking fat iam at 158 iam try to stay there just be lean,

[Wes Carnegie]

Yeah, but I'm about one inch taller and a year older. When I get done with these shows, I'll try to get to about 200 atleast before I cut up again.

Wes

[EDAWG146]

Wes, that's very impressive Bro.

[Wes Carnegie]

Thanks man. I really love to see my body make progress. I haven't taken a day off other than the day before contest, in like 9 weeks. I just wish I was a little older. It's hard to see my full potential seeings as I only just turned 18. The width in my chest seems to be one of my weak points.

Wes

[Cuervo]

yes... im so glad i read this lol :lol:

[A7X]

iam juice when iam 18 thats in 2 years
ever 1 all ready thinks i droped a cycle
cuz iam benching 280 at 16 and i weigh 159 benching i have my hole body big my legs r the only things lacking i seen like 10 boyz juice up herd of like 5 ppl get fuked up by it and 1 guy i new died and read in anabolic insider like five bodybuilders die i see it this way after u work out for more then a year and u do it like 5 times a week only stop when ur sick like. iam down to face my problems down the road the only reason i havent droped a cycle is that iam all readybig 4 my size iam die big


There is no evidence that there are any deaths directly associated with steriods. Some deaths have been coorelated with the abuse of these substances rather than the use.. At the age of 16 it is public knowledge that one is self concious about themself.. The fact that you are repetitivly saying that you are big for you age shows this.. Honestly, Showing your grumatical skills i would say you need to become more educated, in both the topic of anabolics, and i would also invest in a general education... The fact that somebody you knew died from using steriods either means he missused it, or out of neglegence did somthing stupid with them.. Honestly, i have mulitple friends that are 17 or 18 that have done 3+ cycle, have had no sides, and are in fine shape both physically and havn't f-ed up their liver / endocrine system.. Honestly i believe that if you don't do stupid shit while on anabolics, you would be fine doing one cycle at the age of 17.. That is if you don't do anything stupid IE drink, or not do a PCT.. That's my two sense..

[O'GB]

I am sure that Dino has some studies that he can share with us on the regular growth effects of teen using steroids to boost test levels and other such anabolic properties. If you implement a product into your body that you are already trying to produce your own” natural levels" could end up being much lower than they should later.

[A7X]

Yea bro i'm aware of that, it's homeostais, you try to produce more of something that your body produces naturally, it will ultimatly end up doing more damage in the long term, i was just stating that there is no research showing that steroids have lead to death..

"The testosterone effect on the vocal cords leads to the beginnings of voice changing at an average age of 13, accompanied by the onset of spermatogenesis. The growth spurt continues with 45% of the adult skeletal mass acquired between age 11 and age 18."
-Kirtly Parker Jones, M.D.
-Associate Professor
-Department of OB/GYN
-U of U College of Medicine
http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/human_reprod/lectures/pubertal_midlife/
^ Directly Quoted.

Males are equally mature between the age of 11 and 18, once puberty is reached, the natural test levels are basically the same and all other physical systems i.e. Endocrine, and gonanal activities are equal. Hence the fact that violent tendencies generally increase.

For all those saying that, they should wait till arround 22+ or so, medically the age of maturity is anywhere from 11-18 case spacific. Honestly, i wouldn't do it any earlier than 17 or so, to each is their own.

[dinoiii]

Ok, O'GB - got your PM....geesh, it has been a long time since I had revisted this thread....it got pretty juvenile sometime ago.

I tend NOT to chastize for decisions made....I can certainly appreciate a desire to get big as I have long-since acknowledged here.


To suggest that there is NO evidence in either direction is downright outrageous. The problem often encountered is that you either have someone who is all pro-AAS or all anti-AAS, leaving people to figure out for themselves what are "efficacious" and what are "toxic" dosing parameters.

Now, I am not 100% what I am being asked to defend, but I will try and shed light on what I have come to see as being BOTH efficacious AND toxic. I am not going to give you a one-sided story --- hell, I never have.


Efficacy Debates:
Some efficacy based on studies:
What I am saying is that as A7X suggests, studies would agree that there is some efficacy to the following disorders, but recall endocrine feedbacks...nothing is without sides (see below)!
1. Osteoporosis
2. Hematopoietic Disorders (Anemia of End-Stage Renal Disease, Aplastic Anemia, and other anemias ... hereditary angioneurotic edema .... and coagulation, fibrinolysis, and hemophilia disorders)
3. Constitutional Delay of Growth and Puberty (due to estrogenic shutdown)
4. Turner's Syndrome
5. AIDS
6. Burns
7. COPD
8. Alcoholic Hepatitis


Toxicity Debates:
True Toxic Effects seen in enough controlled trials:
Again, negative-feedback systems and the entire endocrine roadmap rules here.
1. HPTA shutdown and subsequent Hypogonadal signs and symptoms (I would encourage reading PCT: ACV articles)
2. CONSISTENT alteration of binding proteins from hepatic origin - i.e. - SHBG, TBG, and DBG. If you don't understand what they are, you likely should NOT be using exogenous substances until you do.
3. INCONSISTENT alteration of CBG
4. 17-alkylated varieties (i.e. - those found in everyone's favorite PHs) consistently elevate plasma haptoglobin, orosomucoid, protein-bound sialic acid, plasminogen, and Beta-glucuronidase.
5. I mention above a decrease in TBG, but ALSO a CONSISTENT decrease in T4 and T3 is seen. (TSH remains for the most part unchanged and will not be part of our discussion)
6. 2 17 alkylated AASs produce INSULIN RESISTANCE and DIMINISHED GLUCOSE TOLERANCE (if you can tell me which ones they are, then maybe you are ready, if not then what we will have is continued Russian roulette - perhaps, it is your friends that have had nothing go awry that are simply "lucky" - and to that effect, I am not kidding - but to suggest because you see no outward demise, essential inner havoc isn't being wreaked isn't exactly intelligent.)
7. Consistent MARKED Decreases in LPL activity.
8. Salt and Water retention with subsequent blood pressure changes.
9. Decrease in HDL and subsequent development of Atrial Fibrillation, Heart Attack, Stroke, Pulmonary Embolism, Hypertension, Cardiomyopathy, Sudden Death
10. Hepatic Effects (but I will give you that they tend to be transient and return to baseline with cessation of use, problem is that many don't STOP and some geniuses that have convinced the bodybuilding world they are "experts" due to the fact that they are on AAS year-round is plain nonsense and NOT for the typical user NOR does it have to be.)
11. Cholestasis
12. Hepatocellular Adenoma and Peliosis Hepatis (see PCT:ACV series and For the Love of Science and Medicine Part II)
13. Mood Changes (Mania, Depression, etc...)
14. Site Injection Horrors (infection)



now one thing that must be taken into consideration is it really depends on the compound and about 100 other factors based on the knowledge we truly possess in this day and age. again, I will stress the controlled setting as SUPERIOR to dismantle coexisting confounding variables as described above and in any of my other posts.



So where would you like to start........you want studies....take your pick from the lists above, we can consider this the starting point of our evaluation of what info is "REALLY" out there.

[A7X]

Very enlightening rebuttle, i like you.. Your a smart guy. I'm just saying that, the majority of these claims are directly associated with missuse of over use.. I mean there are pleanty of people that use anabolics that don't have any troubles due to the fact that hey know what they're doing, i was attempting to say that somebody educated on the matter, should not have any trouble, key word if they are educated.

[lifter1417]

Honestly, i have mulitple friends that are 17 or 18 that have done 3+ cycle, have had no sides, and are in fine shape both physically and havn't f-ed up their liver / endocrine system.
can u really be sure that their liver/ endocrine system is fine? I think that you are forgetting the fact that most liver/endocrine sides are not seen till years down the road. And i am sure that at 17 or 18 the did not have a blood test to check everything out.
I agree with you that there is a difference between steriod use and abuse but at ages below 21, there ARE serious side effects

[A7X]

Correction, can be serious sides.. It's on a case to case basis, dependant on the liver function, and any other toxics that have been injested that have harmed the liver :) I.E. Alcohol

[dinoiii]

I guess it then depends on your definition of "serious" because there are some CONSISTENT (i.e. - for everyone) findings I mentioned above!

[A7X]

I guess it then depends on your definition of "serious" because there are some CONSISTENT (i.e. - for everyone) findings I mentioned above!

Seemingly alot of your sides are associated with injectables.. and more serious now outlawed substances..

[Clickster]

NOBODY under the age of 18 should be doing any kind of steroid or prohormone.

I don't care who likes or dislikes that fact, just read the label on your box. If my kid was taking any kind of that crap I would beat the living crap out of him.

Not to mention, there is no reason for anyone under 18 to need any of these supplements, the only reason for it would be laziness.

[A7X]

NOBODY under the age of 18 should be doing any kind of steroid or prohormone.

I don't care who likes or dislikes that fact, just read the label on your box. If my kid was taking any kind of that crap I would beat the living crap out of him.

Not to mention, there is no reason for anyone under 18 to need any of these supplements, the only reason for it would be laziness.

I respect your input, but we're just having a friendly debate / conversation.. Also my dad is terrified of me so yeah..

[Clickster]

Yeah, I was just adding to the friendly conversation...

No need to get defensive about my post, I already know you have bad parents just by you taking Halodrol already.

It's cool.

[A7X]

Yeah, I was just adding to the friendly conversation...

No need to get defensive about my post, I already know you have bad parents just by you taking Halodrol already.

It's cool.

No need to flame me also, My parents are excellent thanks very much.. successful and live in a huge house wanna see? $700,000.. They don't know i'm on it, parents are gullable, and it is my discision.. And btw i had blood work and a MD check me out and he said that it would have the same effect if i were 21 22 or w/e so, meaning i'm mature in means of endocrine and test.. Please ignore my posts or try to be more kind..


Thanks,
A7X

[Clickster]

If you can't take the remarks, don't go to an online forum at the age of 17 and post all over the place that you are taking steroids.

As far as Parents go, if they are THAT gullable, then yes, they are bad parents.

Making a lot of money and having a nice house doesn't make you a good parent.


I will start to be more kind, it just saddens me that other teenagers may see your idiotic decision and mock you. Me seeing teenagers taking steroids saddens me.

I guess I care too much.

In all seriousness man, good luck with your cycle, I just don't want to see you get hurt.

[A7X]

That's why i was attempting to keep my age semi undisclosed, but i noticed you were a friend with UNC and thought you'd be cool to me as he was. I mean you seem like your a genuine good guy.. If i see any bad effect while on this cycle i will immediatly stop.. i might just finish out this week and then do my PCT and stop and save the rest for later..

Thnx and sorry,
A7X

[Clickster]

I apologize aswell, as I know that some of my posts were a little uncalled for.

I do care about people, and try to help them make better decisions, as I know this is some serious stuff.

I do not want to be the reason you stop your cycle short, if you believe you should stop, stop. If not, then keep doing it. Just be careful with the stuff bro.


Thanks, and once again I apologize.
-Clickster

[A7X]

Naw bro i read here everynight reading what other ignorant kids say laughing about how dumb they seem, but quite frankley i can relate to what they say.. I read the responses from other forum users, see what they say and take it in. Weighed the concequences and determined that a little better fasique (i butchered that word) now, is not worth as much as a better life and greater longevity..

[dinoiii]

I am not sure where you get that most of my sides are with injectables in solitude - this is HARDLY the case. Some admittedly are exempt from various nandralone species, but again - you are arguing a VERY weak point. I offered from the beginning that much would depend on agent.

I am not sure who your doctor is, but the advice offered is purely erroneous and I would ask where he was obtaining information to present as such. This is NOT a medical school lesson and apparently someone has left him quite mislead.

[A7X]

Thnx Mr. Google Himself :)

[Clickster]

Dinoiii is a Dr. bro, I am quite sure he doesn't need Google. ;)

[A7X]

HPTA shutdown and subsequent Hypogonadal signs and symptoms: This is a side effect that is produced by the prolonged use of highly toxic anabolics. It's Homeostasis, you put toomuch of a synthetic form of testosterone or any hormone that binds to the estrogen receptor, or progesterone receptor. This is caused by the prolonged use of steroids or synthetic Testosterone, and a inpropper PCT. The body stops producing natural test to compinsate for that which you are injesting via anabolics or any steroid. This is not a definate side effect from the use of steroids as directed by the manufacturer. Also on this topic adults are equally suseptible to this disorder by the use of steroids as if a child (post puberty). This can arguement can be subsided with the point that, the HPTA Shutdown can be prevented by a adequite break inbetween cycles, and a good PCT for after your cycle. This also means that, it is caused by negligence and being ignorant about the use of steroids.

CONSISTENT alteration of binding proteins from hepatic origin- is only a side if C17α-alkylated steroids are used, as well as of gonadotrophins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)

Too lazy to do any more :-\ but hell studies are done until a consistant data field is made, neither you or i can directly make a claim that this and that is true, all these that you have suggested are just theorys and have been proven wrong. Key word THEORY... Meaning that they have not indefinatly been proven, there are no direct studies that show the use of steroids no blind studies showing that the use of steroids causes any of these side effects. None what so ever. Never has the United states or any other government taken the risk of doing a study on the effect of steroids on humans, there is absoloutly no indefinate side effects that you can prove :)

[cuderbeast]

I am not ingnorant or super knowledable on Steroids or Ph's but i know a thing or two. At 17 years and even the rest of my teens will i touch ph's or roids just because i am too young. As for the 11-18 year old's with the same maturity level. I dont agree with that. I've grown so much over the last year or so and still have growth left. So why would i stop that? And i know people that are 20-21 and still grow. I also believe that your innerds are still growing even though you might think you are fully developed. Also what would you parents due if they found out you are taking those? Couldn't they file a lawsuit or make a big deal about these? I would feel that you are setting a bad example and at the age of 17 you think you know it all but you still have so much left to learn. I honestly couldn't bring myself to take those because of the possible consequences. This is just a moments thought. Also whats your lifting experience and current bench/dead/squat/military?

[A7X]

i've lifted since i was arround 13. that's 4 years.. My bench max is 230, Military max is 135, Squat is 495

[cuderbeast]

How is that? Have you been on a huge Plateau?

I'm 5'6" so i wasn't and am still not a huge guy. But my Bench in 10 months went from maybe 110 to now a strong 220. I military'd like 75 and now i do 135 for reps. In 4 years their is no telling where i'll be, you just need some hard work and supplements. What your doing now is really unneccessary. But maybe you will sway some knowledge onto me and some others reading this. I'm not being mean, if you might take this wrong. But you are doing your thing and thats cool, maybe you will change my mind on these substances and i might try them earlier then i intended. Best of Luck though.

[A7X]

I dunno bro i can't get ne higher naturally w/ creatine wey or diet.. So i'm going to try somthing

[dinoiii]

I am prepping retort in a Word Document - likely up tomorrow. It's NOT that I haven't seen the remarks made in this thread.

[A7X]

Looking forward. Also didn't know u were a Dr. if u didn't know i'm semi new here :)

[cuderbeast]

Dino is a Guru on this Forum

[A7X]

So i've noticed

[Clickster]

Dinoiii and I have our differences in some opinions, but his opinion should be held very highly. He is a great asset to have on this forum, and I have the upmost respect for anything Dinoiii posts.

[A7X]

atleast it's respect not envy :) Yea i'm learning that he's one person to respect due to the fact that he knows what he's talkin about

[dinoiii]

Your arguments remain flawed. First, studies do NOT "prove" anything, solely support....but we do know a thing or two from hormonal replacement and the evolution of PCT in the first place. PCT has evolved to oppose (perhaps even treat in hypogonadal signs and sequelae) effects we have come to accept as SERIOUS potential, not escape them! It is put in place to correct inevitable dysfunction.

To suggest that gynocomastia and/or testicular atrophy is a "theory" as such and that the labs we have on MANY patients to support why it is the case in a background of anabolic use - C17 alkylated or otherwise is a REALITY! One thing you don't get is there are FAR more toxicology reports than there are studies as such (studies lend better support because they use controls), but to throw tox reports out is downright atrocious.

I will give it to you that all of the exact mechanisms are not known (however MANY are) BUT the effects from the 3 major sources I have talked about above (studies aren't even on that list) cannot be overlooked. Now, going back to those examples, if sides have been noted in patients with simple pharmacologic dosing parameters - think about what happens in your prototypical bodybuilder with 2 or more agents on board (see references below about a 22-year old and sudden cardiac death – just a case-study, but compelling nonetheless. Again, is it more Russian roulette to assume you simply “may” not be at risk – I would think so.).

Does this eliminate actual studies....? NO - so lets take a common example of an adverse effect and why I list it (please don't get me going on your Google comment – I am probably one of very FEW on ANY message board that posts MY OWN MATERIAL – you won’t find this stuff elsewhere because it is not the typical MO for people to simply think – some will call me pompous and 9 out of 10 times, I could honestly care less – I am literally the only one that I believe will NOT blow flowers up you’re a*s in retort).

The most predictable and universal adverse effect of AASs (predominantly oral - and this is C17 alkylated OR otherwise, mind you) and one that has stimulated considerable research, is a decrease in the HDL (good or "h"elpful) fraction of cholesterol. I can do this with any of the things listed on the list but this has the most compelling stuff next to liver toxicity.

The HDL-C2 fraction and accompanying A1 are most affected (now with your obvious authoritative posts, you knew this and how well it has in fact been studied, but I digress...). The fall in HDL cholesterol is shortly preceded by increased activity of hepatic triglyceride lipase activity (HTLA) - which is why we now consider induction of HTLA rationale for the decline ... you can call this theory, sure, but it is seen CONSISTENTLY!!!!

T and androstenedione (and ALL associated esters, ethers, et al) ALL lower HDL. As I said above (and you replied as I anticipated - with a weak argument), this is NOT always seen with nandralone species, well at least not AS clear, but it is still seen. In addition, AASs often increase the LDL ("l"ethal or bad) cholesterol fraction, therefore offering the combined effect of an increased LDL/HDL ratio (which is bad for those keeping score) since a low HDL and elevated ratio are both risk factors for cardiovascular disease (implementing heart attack, atrial fibrillation, stroke, pulmonary embolism, hypertension, cardiomyopathy, sudden death). The lack of a unifying hypothesis as I stated above for each individual end effect does NOT mean the case reports are NOT accurate. That is throwing out a heck of a lot of data. Look at autopsy reports if you must to verify.

I am going to put up a few references that support my thoughts above, so don't take my word for it if you struggle to believe.

1. Hurley BF, Seals DR, Hagberg JM, et al. High-density-lipoprotein cholesterol in bodybuilders v. powerlifters: Negative effects of androgen use. JAMA. 252: 507-513, 1984.
2. Applebaum-Bowden D, Haffner SM, Hazzard WR. The dislipoproteinemia of anabolic steroid therapy: increase in hepatic triglyceride lipase precedes the decrease in high density lipoprotein2 cholesterol. Metabolism. 39: 69-74, 1990.
3. Bagatell CJ, Heiman JR, Matsumoto AM, et al.Metabolic and behavioral effects of high dose, exogenous testosterone in healthy men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 79: 561-567. 1994.
4. Zmuda JM, Farenbach MC, Younkin BT, et al. The effect of testosterone aromatization on high density lipoprotein cholesterol level and postheparin lipolytic activity. Metabolism. 42: 446-450. 1993.
5. Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Martini ER, et al. Endocrine responses to chronic androstenedione intake in 30 to 56 year-old-men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85: 4074-4080. 2000.
6. Glazer G, Suchman AL. Lack of demonstrated effect of nandralone on serum lipids. Metabolism. 43: 204-210. 1994.
7. Friedl KE. Reappraisal of the health risks associated with the use of high doses of oral and injectable androgenic steroids. NIDA Res Monogr. 102: 142-177. 1990.
8. McNutt RA, Ferenchick GS, Kirilin PC, et al. Acute Myocardial Infarction in a 22-year old world class weight lifter using anabolic steroids. Am J Cardiol. 62: 164. 1988.
9. Kennedy MC, Lawrence C. Anabolic Steroid abuse and cardiac death. Med J Aust. 158: 346-348. 1993.
10. Sullivan ML, Martinez CM, Gennis P, et al. The cardiac toxicity of anabolic steroids. Prog Cardiovasc Dis. 41: 1-15. 1998.
11. Fineschi V, Baroldi G, Monciotti F, et al. Anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac sudden death: A pathologic study. Arch Pathol Lab Med. 125: 253-255. 2001.
12. Liu PY, Death AK, Handelsman DJ. Androgens and cardiovascular disease. Endocr Rev. 24: 313-340. 2003.

Oh yeah and this is just a few I just got tired of typing them out with rationale of making a point.

[egodog48]

i just had to post, sorry so late on this topic, but I do not believe 1. roiderkid is really that strong, and 2. he is that strong without having gained the name roiderkid
just my opinion...
carry on

[Clickster]

Your arguments remain flawed. First, studies do NOT "prove" anything, solely support....but we do know a thing or two from hormonal replacement and the evolution of PCT in the first place. PCT has evolved to oppose (perhaps even treat in hypogonadal signs and sequelae) effects we have come to accept as SERIOUS potential, not escape them! It is put in place to correct inevitable dysfunction.

To suggest that gynocomastia and/or testicular atrophy is a "theory" as such and that the labs we have on MANY patients to support why it is the case in a background of anabolic use - C17 alkylated or otherwise is a REALITY! One thing you don't get is there are FAR more toxicology reports than there are studies as such (studies lend better support because they use controls), but to throw tox reports out is downright atrocious.

I will give it to you that all of the exact mechanisms are not known (however MANY are) BUT the effects from the 3 major sources I have talked about above (studies aren't even on that list) cannot be overlooked. Now, going back to those examples, if sides have been noted in patients with simple pharmacologic dosing parameters - think about what happens in your prototypical bodybuilder with 2 or more agents on board (see references below about a 22-year old and sudden cardiac death – just a case-study, but compelling nonetheless. Again, is it more Russian roulette to assume you simply “may” not be at risk – I would think so.).

Does this eliminate actual studies....? NO - so lets take a common example of an adverse effect and why I list it (please don't get me going on your Google comment – I am probably one of very FEW on ANY message board that posts MY OWN MATERIAL – you won’t find this stuff elsewhere because it is not the typical MO for people to simply think – some will call me pompous and 9 out of 10 times, I could honestly care less – I am literally the only one that I believe will NOT blow flowers up you’re a*s in retort).

The most predictable and universal adverse effect of AASs (predominantly oral - and this is C17 alkylated OR otherwise, mind you) and one that has stimulated considerable research, is a decrease in the HDL (good or "h"elpful) fraction of cholesterol. I can do this with any of the things listed on the list but this has the most compelling stuff next to liver toxicity.

The HDL-C2 fraction and accompanying A1 are most affected (now with your obvious authoritative posts, you knew this and how well it has in fact been studied, but I digress...). The fall in HDL cholesterol is shortly preceded by increased activity of hepatic triglyceride lipase activity (HTLA) - which is why we now consider induction of HTLA rationale for the decline ... you can call this theory, sure, but it is seen CONSISTENTLY!!!!

T and androstenedione (and ALL associated esters, ethers, et al) ALL lower HDL. As I said above (and you replied as I anticipated - with a weak argument), this is NOT always seen with nandralone species, well at least not AS clear, but it is still seen. In addition, AASs often increase the LDL ("l"ethal or bad) cholesterol fraction, therefore offering the combined effect of an increased LDL/HDL ratio (which is bad for those keeping score) since a low HDL and elevated ratio are both risk factors for cardiovascular disease (implementing heart attack, atrial fibrillation, stroke, pulmonary embolism, hypertension, cardiomyopathy, sudden death). The lack of a unifying hypothesis as I stated above for each individual end effect does NOT mean the case reports are NOT accurate. That is throwing out a heck of a lot of data. Look at autopsy reports if you must to verify.

I am going to put up a few references that support my thoughts above, so don't take my word for it if you struggle to believe.

1. Hurley BF, Seals DR, Hagberg JM, et al. High-density-lipoprotein cholesterol in bodybuilders v. powerlifters: Negative effects of androgen use. JAMA. 252: 507-513, 1984.
2. Applebaum-Bowden D, Haffner SM, Hazzard WR. The dislipoproteinemia of anabolic steroid therapy: increase in hepatic triglyceride lipase precedes the decrease in high density lipoprotein2 cholesterol. Metabolism. 39: 69-74, 1990.
3. Bagatell CJ, Heiman JR, Matsumoto AM, et al.Metabolic and behavioral effects of high dose, exogenous testosterone in healthy men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 79: 561-567. 1994.
4. Zmuda JM, Farenbach MC, Younkin BT, et al. The effect of testosterone aromatization on high density lipoprotein cholesterol level and postheparin lipolytic activity. Metabolism. 42: 446-450. 1993.
5. Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Martini ER, et al. Endocrine responses to chronic androstenedione intake in 30 to 56 year-old-men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85: 4074-4080. 2000.
6. Glazer G, Suchman AL. Lack of demonstrated effect of nandralone on serum lipids. Metabolism. 43: 204-210. 1994.
7. Friedl KE. Reappraisal of the health risks associated with the use of high doses of oral and injectable androgenic steroids. NIDA Res Monogr. 102: 142-177. 1990.
8. McNutt RA, Ferenchick GS, Kirilin PC, et al. Acute Myocardial Infarction in a 22-year old world class weight lifter using anabolic steroids. Am J Cardiol. 62: 164. 1988.
9. Kennedy MC, Lawrence C. Anabolic Steroid abuse and cardiac death. Med J Aust. 158: 346-348. 1993.
10. Sullivan ML, Martinez CM, Gennis P, et al. The cardiac toxicity of anabolic steroids. Prog Cardiovasc Dis. 41: 1-15. 1998.
11. Fineschi V, Baroldi G, Monciotti F, et al. Anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac sudden death: A pathologic study. Arch Pathol Lab Med. 125: 253-255. 2001.
12. Liu PY, Death AK, Handelsman DJ. Androgens and cardiovascular disease. Endocr Rev. 24: 313-340. 2003.

Oh yeah and this is just a few I just got tired of typing them out with rationale of making a point.


Good Game... Owned. ;)

[A7X]

naw i'm to lazy and don't care enough to rebutt

[ndfan]

good A7x got banned about damn time. Kids have no business doing or posting about AAS.

[Clickster]

good A7x got banned about damn time. Kids have no business doing or posting about AAS.

Agreed, logging it and sharing it was a bad move.

[ndfan]

Agreed, logging it and sharing it was a bad move.

Only speaking the truth. Whatever happens to me for being honest so be it, I will live with it.

[Clickster]

Only speaking the truth. Whatever happens to me for being honest so be it, I will live with it.

I meant, him logging it and sharing it was a bad move.

Let's just let this subject drop, as it is rediculous that is even a subject.

[ndfan]

I meant, him logging it and sharing it was a bad move.

Let's just let this subject drop, as it is rediculous that is even a subject.
my bad, misunderstood. all good now.