Liquid Relaxation?

[Ragin Cajin]

What is the deal with that GAT liquid relaxation stuff. Is it like GHB. If anyone knows the science behind this and what it actually does let me know.

[dinoiii]

I am not certain how to react when there is a question of GHB, though that doesn't seem to be the root of your question.



The components of Liquid Relaxation are L-Theanine and Valerian Root.

We will restrict this discussion to those two cpds. since GHB is a classified Schedule I drug right now.

__________________________________________________ _______________
L-theanine:

One of the main components of green tea is the amino acid L-Theanine. Research has shown that L-Theanine can increase levels of GABA, a brain chemical known for its calming effects, and dopamine, which can promote mood enhancement. L-Theanine is non-drowsy, and may even increase mental focus and concentration as it promotes a stress-free state of mind.

L-theanine readily crosses the blood-brain barrier of humans and exerts subtle changes in biochemistry. An increase in alpha waves has been documented and the effect has been compared to getting a massage or taking a hot bath. L-theanine is different from kava-kava in that it doesn’t cause drowsiness. Research with human volunteers has demonstrated that L-theanine creates its relaxing effect in approximately 30 to 40 minutes after ingestion. The mechanism behind this effect is two-fold:

1) L-theanine directly stimulates production of alpha brain waves, which creates a deep state of relaxation while maintaining mental alertness.

2) L-theanine appears to play a role in the formation of GABA. GABA acts as a powerful manager (it is inhibitory) of neurotransmitters and helps maintain relaxed levels of neuron activity.

__________________________________________________ ______________
Valerian Root:

Valerian can be classified in many different therapeutic categories. It is known for its efficacy in treating disorders of the nervous system and in calming the entire body. Other categories include anodyne (pain reliever), anti-inflammatory, antispasmodic, antiemetic, carminative (tones, soothes, and stimulates the digestive and elimination systems), sedative, hypnotic, antihypertensive, and antibacterial.

The herb valerian is most effective in treating a wide range of stress conditions such as irritability, depression, fear, anxiety, nervous exhaustion, hysteria, delusions, and nervous tension. It is also indicated for patients who suffer from insomnia. Valerian is proposed to not only ease the trouble of falling asleep but also improve the quality of sleep during the night.

After taking valerian, a patient will wake up very rested and alert without the grogginess seen with some over-the-counter sleeping pills. As a pain reliever, the herb is useful for treating tension headaches, migraine headaches, arthritis, and sore muscles.

Valerian has also been found to be effective in a number of nerve disorders. The herb is useful for treating shingles, sciatica,neuralgia, multiple sclerosis, and epilepsy. (I have used it as an adjunct with the last 3) Symptoms suggestive of peripheral neuropathy such as numbness, tingling sensation, pain, and muscle weakness are effectively controlled with the use of valerian. It has also been used to treat attention deficit disorder in adults.

The herb has also found a role in treating a variety of nervous disorders in children. In one German study, an extract of valerian root was given to 120 children with a wide variety of behavioral disorders such as restlessness, sleep disorders, hyperactivity, learning disorders, bed wetting, anxiety, headache, and the habits of thumb sucking and nail biting. After three weeks of using valerian extract daily, 75 percent of the children showed marked improvement of their conditions without any toxicity or negative side effects.

In ancient Rome, valerian was used to treat certain heart conditions. Through its positive action on the autonomic nervous system, the herb is effective in treating tachycardia by slowing down the heart at the same time gently increasing its force. It also is effective in regulating arrhythmias. Along with a stabilizing effect on the blood pressure, valerian is an anti- thrombotic that can be used to prevent the formation of blood clots.

This stabilizing effect is also seen on the gastrointestinal and respiratory tracts. Valerian calms the stomach while encouraging the release of digestive enzymes and reducing the pain and discomfort of ulcers. In the colon, the herb alleviates cramps, gas, and diarrhea, and has a soothing effect on the bowel with colitis. Valerian has also proved helpful in the treatment of asthma.

Unlike other sedatives and drugs, valerian has none of the side effects or dependency risk that these have. In addition there is no synergistic effect when the herb is taken with alcohol. It can also be taken safely along with other prescriptlon drugs. Valerian is used extensively in Europe where it is accepted by orthodox medicine. It is found in many over-the- counter preparations used to treat a variety of nervous disorders. As more practitioners discover the benefits of valerian, its use will increase in the United States as well.


__________________________________________________ ________________

NOTE: I do NOT recommend to take this continuously. Use it in a 5 days on, 2 days off fashion. My rationale, I will explain in a later post.

[Ragin Cajin]

Thanks, i wasnt really getting at if it is like ghb. I was just wondering if the stuff really makes you relaxed and helps poor sleep patterns. I am a terrible insomniac and am trying to find something non-perscription that could help me out. Thanks d for the info.

[dinoiii]

Hey there is a product I use for just such occasions - pretty cheap too called "Knock Out" by Schiff.

Has those two cpds in there + a bunch of other things. Even on the craziest of nights (tossin + turnin), I find it, well "knocks me out!"

Not kidding and REALLY CHEAP btw. Oh yeah I said that. Unfortunately I do not see it sold at DA. Just a head's up.

[italionstallionl]

just wondering but doesnt melatonin help you sleep?

[Ragin Cajin]

Ya melatonin helps you sleep but that doesnt seem to work either. I need something potent. Anyother suggestions. Thanks for the info again d. You really know your stuff and help me outta jams. I will check the net for that schiff stuff.

[Ragin Cajin]

Hey is it called Melatonin knock out tabs. I think I found it if it is. Its like 15 bucks for 50 tabs. Does that sound about right?

[Founder]

Liquid Relax actually works pretty well. I just take about 1/2 cap about 20 mins b4 bed and it knocks me out. Some customers I speak to tell me that they need up to three caps, but they are generally insomniacs.

Down side: Do not take too much of this or it can give you a mild hangover.

Another sleeper (no pun) is Five Star Renu-Fit.

[Ragin Cajin]

Well I am a hardcore insomniac. I havent had a decent rest in years. I dont know what it is. I dont do any high volume activity before bed or anything. I might have to check out that liquid relaxation stuff.

[max von]

Rajin

keep in mind and this is one topic that i am very familiar with and that is that GHB is not used to help you sleep it is a very powerfull drug that is used for illegal use 90% of the time and has very serious side affect i have seen them first hand

max von

[dinoiii]

Well, again GHB is a schedule I drug and I will reserve comment.

However, Knock Out tabs are cheap and contain both ingredients in Liquid Relaxation + Melatonin, Glycine, GABA --AND-- the proper absorption nutrients (co-factors).


Its delivery is the only thing questioned but for $15 is it not worth a shot. Maybe you have tried Melatonin in the past, but not Melatonin plus the others at the same time. Remember to ingest up to 9 grams safely though and then you could consider problems with 15 grams plus. There is always an effective dosing pattern that should be considered.


I am not knocking Liquid Relaxation at all...I have NEVER tried it and note I am telling you this flat out, but I do not feel the cost is justified personally for the ingredients (liquid or not). Knock Out has lived up to its $15 tag and name.

[dinoiii]

After reading Observer's post in the Off Topic section, I didn't want to edit my post as I feel that would be misleading and it isn't as scandalous as some of my other posts, but realize that I may be promoting a product not sold by DA - however, understand too that I have no affiliation with this company (Schiff) and am solely suggesting, perhaps, Chris consider carrying it as I have found it useful.


In regards to this oversight, I am again further elaborating that I have NEVER used Liquid Relaxation and perhaps the liquid delivery makes it a superior product, I am not sure.
Case in point: I have taken PH's and many are familiar with the fact that I have taken a lot of PHs in my days and have found some liquid varieties superior to encapsulated. For example: Monster Test from VPX is a great product (although I am probably willing to bet it is sold out now), whereas some tablet forms are less than stellar in results --> will not throw out a name though. This will simply offer potential support to what I have suggested may make Liquid Relaxation superior.

Now, to prove whether it is or not, against ALL I believe in - I am going to do something I NEVER DO. In my next order, I am going to order Liquid Relaxation to make ammends for potentially parttaking in any wrongdoing to Chris' sales. However, I will offer up a FULL-LENGTH evaluation (NO HOLDS BARRED) that will pit the two products head-to-head. I will post bedtime experiences (WELL, MOST OF EM anyway :? ) in response to both products. LOOK FOR IT SOON!!!

[dinoiii]

As I too sometimes feel very groggy - perhaps they could follow with

Liquid Alertness?

[Ragin Cajin]

I want to thank dinoiii personally for taking these sups and I cant wait to see what he has to say. Thank you dinoiii

[max von]

Im sorry guys i still dont inderstand the point of pitting the 2 against each other if all they are. are relaxing supplements and that you can get from OTC. I really see no need for a product like this but that is just my feelings i might be wrong but like i said i dont get it

max von

[max von]

also has there been any scientific proof behind the herb that are used in the products or is it just stuff that is believed to do this for you

max von

[dinoiii]

* If you are interested in researching the active ingredients Max, here are some decent papers and research studies to get you started - there are like 100s of additional references in the medical literature...THIS IS FOR VALERIAN ALONE


Clinical Study Meta-Analysis

1. Dietary Supplements and Natural Products as Psychotherapeutic Agents
Adriane Fugh-Berman, MD and Jerry M. Cott, PhD
From the Department of Health Care Sciences (A.F.-B.), George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Sciences, Washington, DC; and Adult Psychopharmacology Program (J.M.C.), National Institute of Mental Health, Rockville, MD.
Psychosomatic Medicine 61:712-728 (1999)
__________________________________________________ ________

Clinical Trials and Laboratory Tests

1. Double blind study of a valerian preparation.
Lindahl O, Lindwall L.
Foellinge Health Center, Sweden.
Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1989 Apr;32(4):1065-6. PMID: 2678162

2. The effects of valerian, propranolol, and their combination on activation, performance, and mood of healthy volunteers under social stress conditions.
Kohnen R, Oswald WD.
Psychology Department II, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, FRG.
Pharmacopsychiatry. 1988 Nov;21(6):447-8. PMID: 3244789

3. Effect of valepotriates (valerian extract) in generalized anxiety disorder: a randomized placebo-controlled pilot study.
Andreatini R, Sartori VA, Seabra ML, Leite JR.
Departamento de Farmacologia, Brazil
Phytother Res. 2002 Nov;16(7):650-4. PMID: 12410546

4. Critical evaluation of the effect of valerian extract on sleep structure and sleep quality.
Donath F, Quispe S, Diefenbach K, Maurer A, Fietze I, Roots I.
Institute of Clinical Pharmacology, Charite University Medical Center, Germany
Pharmacopsychiatry. 2000 Mar;33(2):47-53. PMID: 10761819

5. Effect of a fixed valerian-Hop extract combination (Ze 91019) on sleep polygraphy in patients with non-organic insomnia: a pilot study.
Fussel A, Wolf A, Brattstrom A.
Zeller AG, Switzerland.
Eur J Med Res. 2000 Sep 18;5(9):385-90. PMID: 11003973

6. Pharmacodynamic effects of valerian and hops extract combination (Ze 91019) on the quantitative-topographical EEG in healthy volunteers.
Vonderheid-Guth B, Todorova A, Brattstrom A, Dimpfel W.
Pro Science Private Research Clinic GmbH, Germany.
Eur J Med Res. 2000 Apr 19;5(4):139-44. PMID: 10799347

7. Aqueous extract of valerian root (Valeriana officinalis L.) improves sleep quality in man.
Leathwood PD, Chauffard F, Heck E, Munoz-Box R.
Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1982 Jul;17(1):65-71. PMID: 7122669

8. Comparative study for assessing quality of life of patients with exogenous sleep disorders (temporary sleep onset and sleep interruption disorders) treated with a hops-valarian preparation and a benzodiazepine drug
Schmitz M, Jackel M.
Institut fur Psychosomatik, Austria
Wien Med Wochenschr. 1998;148(13):291-8. PMID: 9757514

9. Effect of kava and valerian on human physiological and psychological responses to mental stress assessed under laboratory conditions.
Cropley M, Cave Z, Ellis J, Middleton RW.
Department of Psychology, School of Human Sciences, University of Surrey,UK.
Phytother Res. 2002 Feb;16(1):23-7. PMID: 11807960

10. Stress-induced insomnia treated with kava and valerian: singly and in combination.
Wheatley D.
Psychopharmacology Research Group, UK.
Hum Psychopharmacol. 2001 Jun;16(4):353-356. PMID: 12404572

11. Effect of valerian, Valeriana edulis, on sleep difficulties in children with intellectual deficits: randomised trial.
Francis AJ, Dempster RJ.
Department of Psychology and Disability Studies, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology University,Australia.
Phytomedicine. 2002 May;9(4):273-9. PMID: 12120807

12. Effect of kava and valerian on human physiological and psychological responses to mental stress assessed under laboratory conditions.
Cropley M, Cave Z, Ellis J, Middleton RW.
Phytother Res 2002;16:23-7. PMID: 11807960

13. The influence of valerian treatment on "reaction time, alertness and concentration" in volunteers.
Kuhlmann J, Berger W, Podzuweit H, Schmidt U.
Lichtwer Pharma AG, Berlin, Germany.
Pharmacopsychiatry. 1999 Nov;32(6):235-41. PMID: 10599933

14. Synaptosomal GABA release as influenced by valerian root extract--involvement of the GABA carrier.
Santos MS, Ferreira F, Cunha AP, Carvalho AP, Ribeiro CF, Macedo T.
Department of Zoology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Coimbra, Portugal.
Arch Int Pharmacodyn Ther. 1994 Mar-Apr;327(2):220-31. PMID: 7979830

15. The scientific basis for the reputed activity of Valerian.
Houghton PJ.
Department of Pharmacy, King's College London.
J Pharm Pharmacol. 1999 May;51(5):505-12. PMID: 10411208

16. Rational phytotherapy: a physician's guide to herbal medicine.
Schulz V, Hänsel R, Tyler VE.
Berlin: Springer, 1998:81.

17. Can valerian improve the sleep of insomniacs after benzodiazepine withdrawal?
Poyares DR, Guilleminault C, Ohayon MM, Tufik S.
Sleep Laboratory of the Department of Psychobiology, Brazil.
Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2002 Apr;26(3):539-45. PMID: 1199990




*** Note: 9 out of 10 studies are Eastern block studies, but where else do you not have research run by pharmaceutical giants?

[dinoiii]

btw: using the quasi-conglomerate term "scientific proof" is like an oxymoron. Based on your previous posts, I am going to have to ask if you are aware that 90% of the stuff you question has no "scientific proof." Does it make you question it as much as these two.


Let's put it differently, b/c at least in the defense of Knock Out, I have offered "real world" experience (which seems to somehow jump over this whole science thing these days) with the product verifying its effectiveness. All-in-all, however, this is a supplement that has actual research backing + real-world (which again, I am not sure are mutually exclusive, but it seems we like to classify it that way).

As far as L-theanine, it has been used in European culture for ages, but its research is kind of lacking. Let me ask this though - is it as far out of the park as Arachidonic Acid, which you seem to have fallen for whole-heartedly - I don't think so.
:roll:

[italionstallionl]

so dinoiii, when are you going to be buying your x factor?

:wink:

[italionstallionl]

sorry, wrong topic

[max von]

Dino its not a matter of falling for for x-factor it is a matter of believing in a person and a company and that they have good intentions with there product. You obviously have a big problem with x-factor and that is your choice but you are right alot of the supp that we take dont always have scientific proof as to weather they are good or not but we still try them and we try them based on the fact of our past experience. As far as being sold on the AA in x-factor i have yet to talk to a doctor that would recommend methal products to any one in fact the ones that i talked to and i did last night at local hospital where i live said it is very dangerous and should never be taken, My point here is that you are an MD and believe methal products are safe and would recommend them to people whats wrong with Bill doing the same he say they are safe you say not. I am not trying to argue with you but there are always risks you take when you put products into your body and that should always be our freedom as consumers first and formost

max von

[max von]

the reason that i question it in the first place if you remember was the question of the whole gbh issue. Ican read all the articles in the world but half of them to the lay person they dont understand cause of the language that it used. What works for me is when some one tells me what the product has done for then and the benifits they have recieved

max von

[dinoiii]

I will tamper sort of only with how I was quoted in your post Max.

My "safe" considerations of M1T and its effects on the liver are VERY conditional.
#1 - I think that PROPER use of methylated PHs, while potentially affecting the liver in negative ways IN SUSCEPTIBLE PEOPLE, is ok - I have NEVER shyed away from that ideology.
#2 - PROPER USE, however, surrounds that which I have written about in numerous posts here at DA and hopefully people would fully understand methylated PH use prior to embarking on that first cycle.
#3 - I actually also promote the use of LFT-testing (read my former posts if you are not familiar with the abbreviation) for EVERYONE on methylated PH use. How many do you think do that?

Considering statement #2, I will state that there certainly are risks to consider for a portion of the population with methylated PHs (however, LFTs have NOT been shown to significantly rise with all pts. that come in taking them), while I am simply concerned of risk to EVERYONE considering X-Factor simply due to membrane phospholipid/linolenic acid/arachidonic acid metabolism consistency (please stay tuned to X Factor thread - Just one more reason to stay right here at DA).

I think that ANYONE SHOULD UNDERSTAND what is going on with their bodies internally, even if there are purported glorious body composition effects seen on the outside - albeit potentially by the 1000s. I will be someone's lab rat WITH VERY PARTICULAR CONDITIONS.

This is what I preach and you can feel free to quote me from here on out based on information presented in this post.

[dinoiii]

And lastly, while on the GHB thing...

research should also be considered REAL WORLD RESULTS provided that info is presented as accurate as possible - in fact, sometimes, I would take the findings of RESEARCH over REAL WORLD b/c of the missuse by the real world users.

wherever this terrible real world vs. research debate was started purporting that the two are not one and the same, I am not sure - probably someone trying to sell a product. The only arguments potentially for you to argue in that debate are that it is a controlled environment (which can be controlled with particular users in the real world as well), and that the research was finagled in some way (which is why I said research that is well done).


btw: if the language sounds difficult for you in these studies, perhaps I can interest you in a roiderkid exclusive GANGSTA dictionary that I have recently discovered no use for either. In the same sense, I would be curious if you even looked at the research prior to making that comment about not understanding it.

[max von]

Dinoiii

I appreciate your response to my post and my ambition is not to argue with you or insult you but to engage in a genuine debate over this issue. I agree with you on the LTF testing and wonder how many doctors would even do that for you. I did read your post on this and in fact i printed it incase this is the route that i decide to take. Considering that time is almost up i may get my mind made up with the ban. I dont understand the info that you keep talking about with membrane phospholipid/linolenic acid/arachidonic, see to me this means nothing maybe that is the only way to explain it but what i would like to be told is in lay term what is the worst that could happen i have found that out involving methal's but not you. The problem is that there are 2 people that are on this board that i trust on this specific item and that is you and Bill. Bill i have had personal contact with and he has set up programs that have work greatly for me so it is hard for me to believe that he has not done his work on this and that the product would be so severly dangerous as it sound like you are saying so that is the status where i am at with this.

thank for hearing me out

max von

[max von]

Dinoiii

im sorry that you have decide to take it to the point of mentioning the dictionary for Gangstra. Kinda Cheap if you ask me. I have read a couple of the articles not all of them you are right. and not fully as the info is very long and i like things to the point. I am not a dumb guy on here with nothing better to do i do my reserch and i think if you really knew what i do for a living you would have a different opnion of what i have to say. Again i did read some of the articles after you sent them to me keep in mind this is supposed to be a place where all people no matter what there education level is can come and talk agree or disagree

max von

[max von]

if you would like to email me at my personal email address of tonrod@charter.net i would be happy to talk with you personally and not on this board after the roid kid comment i think you would be suprised by who i really am and might suprise you by where i have been

max von

[italionstallionl]

i really hate to be a b***h and interrupt, but it is 5 20 right now, and i have not gone to sleep yet. i am wondering how the results are with the sleepers you tried dinoiii-knockout vs liquid relaxation

thanks, and again sorry for getting in the middle

[dinoiii]

Yeah

Great points I agree with again Stallion:
there ended up like 3 topics on this post and it really is a thread about the two products you mentioned. I have had to ask a question to Chris and Observer in the email route about my next order placement for purchase of Liquid Relaxation, CVM extreme, and potentially X Factor - who knows. But I am solely pointing out that I have not tried the Liquid Relaxation as of yet.

[dinoiii]

Max:
wow, man - I apologize for the roiderkid jab - how I intended for that comment to come out is not even how I interpreted it. When I went back and read it because I saw that it discturbed you so much, I too would've wanted to hand me my tongue on a platter. We will certainly be in touch IM or email based on it, b/c I truly feel bad for making such a comment - but moreso for how it appears that you took the comment. As far as Bill and me...first of all - I have a GREAT respect for the man and TO BE EVEN LUMPED IN A SENTENCE WITH A GUY YOU FEEL SUCH HIGH REGARD FOR, HELL ALL I CAN DO IS THANK YOU.

[dinoiii]

The conundrum develops anytime you choose to challenge someone you look up to though. It has potential advantages and disadvantages but my intentions - which many may not understand simply b/c I really have laid low in the last couple of days - not really on as much as I am usually taking care of some things - lots of stuff changing for me practice wise right now - getting set for a move to Baltimore, MD from Rochester, NY - perhaps in an email I wrote to Steve yesterday, he too could have seen how literally exhausted my words were.

I still am prepping the document I promised on that thread for X factor and maybe you can simply take a read at what I offer when I do post it...not because I am trying to be a thorn in Bill's side or anything, but for the pure fact that - if I am such a huge fan of Bill's (heck you see I cannot wait to get my hands on Anabolics 2005 and how great I thought Boldione was) - then maybe a RED FLAG would go up as to why, at least on one topic, he and I could be on such different ends of a dichotomy.

It is certainly hard to show up on a board like this not really representing a supplement company. The advantages are self-explanatory I feel in that I can tell it like it is and do not feel the need to sugar coat response. There are true supplements on the market that are hype - surely you agree with me there. The biggest disadvantage is that many will attempt to call my bluff after I try to exploit that, sure. I assure you no supplement company would not support their own products - that just doesn't make sense market-wise.

Would Bill have been drawn here if I was not a super critic - its questionable...am I glad he took the bait - absolutely - and perhaps in it, he can benefit from a positive defense of his claims by yet increased sales of the product. Now, if only I can draw that Patrick Arnold over here...he has encouraged my science-talk in the past and I thought the stones I was throwing in that direction were a lot larger - but I am certain he too will bite soon. He is drawn to it or maybe he has gotten larger than it now, considering his new ads.

My micro-analysis can only be beneficial in the end. I urge you to try and understand all the biochemical responses in your body for reasons that everyone be safe and not only remain using supplements in the present but many years down the line. If it is challenging for you to undestand the terms I mentioned, perhaps you should NOT start out with an arachidonic acid product such as X-Factor in the first place.

Max, I am not trying to go over eveyone's head in coming on here and play "holier than thou" - I am trying to encourage intelligent discussion and not just I like this/hate that kind of thing. Perhaps, you do not realize it, but you really are an armchair scientist - and you have been since you took that first pill. Understanding can probably do nothing more than put you in a better position to design future programs, etc... that will further your career or whatever it is you want in this industry - minimally to put all these supplements together to work with your body's chemistry.

This is my goal - to aid in this process in any way I can. I love that SNS and Steve's posts blatanly list his goals...perhaps - mine have been unclear up until now. I would HATE to think after hearing words are challenging you like arachidonic acid/linolenic acid/membrane phospholipids that maybe you didn't want to figure out what they were. This is what upsets me. You have seemingly made a decision to ingest it without fully understanding it. That is plain dangerous and instead of just ingesting it because real world results show it "works," how bout being able to say there's research to back it up too, even if that is just an added side note?

[italionstallionl]

well im gonna give knock out a try, hopefully it works as well as all the reviews ive read for it say it does

[caniplaywith_madness]

i appreciate dinoiii and max and the regulars here on the board that come not only to get a quick answer and leave but to help teach others and learn from others. when people do this its a perfect world. now if this forum had 40 regular posters instead of 10 or so there would be a lot of shit talking and putdowns. really sucks that the latter forum represents how the world really is. out of 40 theres just got to be 2 or 3 assholes minimum. haha this is off topic. being a person that suffers from depression and anxiety (i take effexor and klonopin) i have problems sleeping too. what ive found that works so great is regular benadryl (the antihistamine only) it works wonders for me. also maybe medatation. i know that sounds new age crystalish, but there is guided imagery and ocean sounds and stuff like that to listen to and relax your mind. this also works for me. hope this helps.

[max von]

Dinoiii

thanks for that reply sometime we take thing to personal before we think but all in all in was a good description but i still am interested in talking with you about your info that you have for x-factor. I agree to that this thread change and i ment what i said about you and bill.


"i love you man"

max von

[max von]

Dinoiii

i agree with you and your last post is correct maybe i need to more research on this. That is the good part about being able to talk to people like yourself and others on this site and to hope fully get an unbias response from people. I will say that your determination on this issue has caused me to hold off on purchasing this product before i am 100% comfortable with it. In those regard you have done your job on here and serve the forum well. I do appreciate what you have given me and look forward to larger post that you said you were writing

thanks Dinoiii it helps

max von

[dinoiii]

Ok - not sure what I have made you hold off on - but if it is Liquid Relax. that was not the intention. If it is X Factor, you may be surprised at how my post will end up reading in the X Factor thread based on Bill's current thoughts. Lot planned and trying not to rush, but at the same time rush it along (yeah I know, you figure it out - makes no sense to me either...midnight on the east coast, time for bed).

[max von]

dinoiii

i was refering to the info that you have given me on x-factor i trust your reaserch and i am waiting to see the report and post that you are working on for your final imput on x-factor. I am correct that you have something more coming right i hope so this has help me try doing more research on it

max von

[dinoiii]

Yes...I am simply cleaning up some last minutes with patients which is the problem right now by Friday - then 2 weeks off, lots of travel between Baltimore and Rochester .... but yeah after Friday posting all the extras I have eluded to that will take a bit more time, will come - busy reading for all on Saturday or Sunday at the latest I assure you.

[italionstallionl]

the two sleep aids i got are Solaray Sleep Blend SP-17 and knock out, i should be getting them today-tomorrow and will use them when necessary, i will post results once i have used both

[dinoiii]

Keep in mind too stallion that something like knockout contains Melatonin and should be cycled as well -or- alternatively used more sporadic...this is where something like Liquid Relaxation would likely fit in w/o melatonin in it.

While I am not certain what the other product is you mention, the company is reputable. I can imagine you will be getting your money's worth there. I too am not sure which of these products Chris has if any. If none, I think the feedback may offer a worthwhile rationale for getting them in stock. Just a thought.

Note: Anyone who has mentioned a product yet to be available on this site is not offering shameless plugs (as I do NOT think they are associated with any company in question) and I think simply may offer a good option for future products Chris may want to consider.

[italionstallionl]

thanks for the tip on using the sleep aids. my plan was to only use them when needed, which for me seems to be maybe once a week, sometimes twice. does that sound ok to you?

[dinoiii]

Yeah - sounds better than every day, especially with anything containing melatonin (yet, but one more hormone introduction into our bodies).

Btw: I think you will be happy with that product. I think I feel like I wake up having rested a lot more hours than I get to sleep. This is certainly the one area of my bb lifestyle that needs work --> getting the proper amount of sleep (but that kind of comes with the territory as I am sure you have guessed).

[max von]

still wondering if theses relaxtion/ sleep aids make you feel groggy in the morning or do you wake up well rested

max von

[italionstallionl]

dinoiiis post above yours says he wakes up feeling well rested as if he slept more than he really did, so i would have to say they make you fell pretty good

[italionstallionl]

dinoiii- here are the ingredients of the other sleep aid, any comments, warnings, or suggestions on taking this

Proprietary Blend: Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) (root), Hops (Humulus lupulus) (cone), Skullcap (Scutellaria lateriflora) (aerial), Passion Flower (Passiflora incarnata) (flower), Dandelion (Taraxacum officinale) (root), Chamomile (Matricaria recutita) (aerial), Marshmallow (Althaea officinalis) (root), Hawthorn (Crataegus oxyacantha) (berry) 400 mg

Other Ingredients:
Gelatin (capsule), iron phosphate 3x, magnesium phosphate 3x and potassium phosphate 3x

thanks

[dinoiii]

Well, Propietary blends are sometimes tricky so I cannot really comment on dosing safetiness. However, I will break down some concerns with the compounds you list that I see in the office.


With Hops, yes it does stimulate sleep, but it is also an appetite stimulant. This could be a good thing and/or bad thing - because I am not sure of its actual concentration, I am a little wary about taking it before bed...for hypothetical reasons. It has the potential on paper, if I am correct to actually stimulate gastric juices and digestive enzymes. I am not sure while staving off catabolism that this is my first choice to take prior to going to sleep. But, I will tell you this - its use as a sedative is based mostly on tradition rather than scientific evidence (so "real worlders" may be happy). I don't know of any interactions with this compound, but I can say that it contains mild plant phytoestrogens that people were throwing out the scares that it may turn you into a woman years ago - Jesus, I did say MILD....I wouldn't worry about this stallion - I just wanted to point it out in case you saw some of the horror stories out there.

Skullcap is something that has just started creeping into more and more products to aid sleep - uhhh, again highly anecdotal evidence but I like its positive effects on the cardiovascular system. I have used it as an adjunct for rx: muscle cramps, stress, headaches, hyperactivity, and rheumatoidism but I think many people used to use it as a treatment for barbiturate addiction and drug withdrawl (hey maybe it would be worth trying for anyone's PH withdrawl :P )

-- I think the list gets highly debated in being successful for rx (btw means treatment) of insomnia beyond the first three ingredients, but maybe that is there justification for the ole proprietary blend...I dunno!



Passionflower is better extracted from the aerial parts (should this have read aerial parts for the passionflower?) b/c it is the flower and fruits that calm the CNS or kind of act like a tranquelizer. I know of a guy (he's an ND) who uses this to treat wounds b/c if I am not mistaken this is the one that contains the antibiotic in the leaves - but I would have to reference that. I think this one has received serious scrutiny for all uses, but again - would have to look it up - is generally regarded as safe - but don't quote me...my knowledge of this one is lagging.

Dandelion used by bb's - the only thing I can recall is its use as kind of a diuretic which I think has clinical support. If not mistaken, I think this increases or at least aids digestion and I may have used it in the past (but again, another lookup as you go down your list, they get more and more trivial) as a anti-constipation agent. In the case of bbs, I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't start seeing it in liver aid formulas b/c I think there is support for bile production stimulation and liver disorder treatment (which we all know what that means, maybe would aid our methylated and worn out livers) - I would look it up, but don't want to do a search which sometimes takes time for how picky I am finding what I want and my office is a mess right now getting ready for the move.

Chamomile, I think is like the historic of all alternative methods to treat skin disorders and wounds. I have known people to use it to give their hair a blond highlight in a tea tincture, but PO I think it is great for heartburn - that's about all I recall there.

I got nothing when it comes to marshmallow, man - never heard of its use so again, I would encourage a search perhaps, but judging by how far down the list it is of a 400mg proprietary, I wouldn't worry about it.

Hawthorn is used pretty commonly for heart patients. I believe it is great for BP, CHF issues. This may be something in the bb sense you can use to increase urinary output (wow, now that I look at it, hopefully you arent up peeing all night, huh? :lol: ) - but I think it is usually edema associated with CHF. Also like restless leg syndrome formulas use this cpd a lot.

All the cpds you list are safe as far as I can recall. You may want to check my knowldege of your list beyond the first three cpds. (Hawthorne being the exception), but I don't see it being too big an issue anywhere at 400 mg total!

[italionstallionl]

thanks a lot for all the help, i appreciate the time you took to reply and all the details. i already wake up at night to pee so i should be alright. thanks again

[caniplaywith_madness]

i decided to try knock out and two nights in a row it has worked VERY well. im totally impressed. the only problem is i need something to sleep every night. mostly because i have anxiety. dinoiii you said to cycle this sup. 5 days on 2 off. would that be only the melatonin or would that include valarian also because i can buy valarian by itself. i may even start using the valarian during the day. i already drink green tea so i dont need that sup. but as far as this product i would recomend it. i would also recommend benadryl.

[max von]

italion

thanks thats what i was looking for dont want to be dragging all day

max von

[dinoiii]

I think all supplements should be "cycled."

Something like Valerian should not be used for longer than 2 weeks of CONTINUOUS use. 1-2 weeks break at that time would be ideal. If your insomnia symptoms persist, consider seeing your own physician to be safe.

Something like Melatonin deserves a more frequent cycling pattern, due to the exogenous hormonal introduction. 5 on, 2 off may be ideal... you could take in this case a "sleep aid holiday" over the weekend, for example (like certain other drugs that they avid addiction + withdrawl patterns from in this mode).

[dinoiii]

madness:

maybe you can look into a Rodiola type product if it is true "anxiety" and not insomnia you feel. Has your doctor ever considered an anxiolytic?

I would NOT recommend benadryl on a consistent basis. Its an anti-histamine (no histamine receptor specialization allowing sides - a 1st generation drug) - and the diphenhydramine having what was known as a sedative side effect became popularized in OTC sleep aids. Some people do not handle these 1st generation drugs well.

[caniplaywith_madness]

yes my dr. prescribes diazepam and klonopin for anxiety. the anxiety is most definatly the cause for my insomnia. i have panic attacks also but rarely, ive learned how to cope with them pretty well. theyre horrific. both diazepam and klonopin work well. i try to take the benadryl for a few days then diazepam for a few days then klonopin... hoping that that will help with keeping away addiction but i think needing something EVERY night makes it very hard to keep from being addicted to something.

[italionstallionl]

damnit i am never ordering from anothe supp company again, i ordered last sat for my sleep aids, still havent gotten them and tonight is a night i could use them, its 230, i gotta wake up at 7 15 for class tomorrow

[dinoiii]

Stallion

I would be more concerned as to why you are placing a post at 230am - geesh! That won't put you to sleep ya know? :D

[italionstallionl]

lol, yeah, but there is not much else to do at 2 30 when sleeping isnt in the running, mine as well hop on here and throw up a post

[dinoiii]

Fair enough!

[dinoiii]

Actually on second thought I think Chris can market the Anabolic Forum as a "Stay Awake" formula.

[caniplaywith_madness]

why not for nights like this italian, take some benadryl. i dont want to keep pushing it but for me and most of the people i know who have used it its a miracle drug.

[italionstallionl]

thanks for the idea, but i think my sleep aids will be arriving today, but after that little sleep last night i dont think i will need them tonight

dinoiii that is an interesting idea

[dinoiii]

yes my dr. prescribes diazepam and klonopin for anxiety. the anxiety is most definatly the cause for my insomnia. i have panic attacks also but rarely, ive learned how to cope with them pretty well. theyre horrific. both diazepam and klonopin work well. i try to take the benadryl for a few days then diazepam for a few days then klonopin... hoping that that will help with keeping away addiction but i think needing something EVERY night makes it very hard to keep from being addicted to something.

The valium seems like it would cause interactions with other meds like Benadryl if you were to use them in that type of succession due to some of the metabolites forming really long-acting molecules. It almost seems as though you would potentially be tired all the time if continually cycling in the manner you prescribed.

The problem when you cycle them in this fashion, you may actually be causing a rebound insomnia and I would look into whether or not you were not the source of any sleep disturbance. Your doctor is aware you cycle like this?

Klonopin - I don't personally really like using outside of epileptic cases anymore.

[max von]

Italion you could always try nyquil that stuff is the bomb or turn on cnn that will put you to sleep for sure

max von

[dinoiii]

At that he should just take the Benadryl though.

The same type of drug is putting you asleep in both.

Bendryl - diphenhydramine (1st gen antihistamine)

NyQuil - component that makes you sleepy = Doxylamine succinate (1st gen antihistamine)

Both have sedative effects out of the same class via same receptor.

* Unfortunately, with NyQuil taking it on a consistent basis is not a good idea - you get the luxury of:
(1) Acetaminophen (more hepatotoxic than methylated PHs),
(2) Dextromethorphan HBr (opioid),
(3) Psuedoephedrine HCl (interesting the intention of the selection of this nasal decongestant was to avoid sedative side effects...b/c it is an adrenergic agonist)

[max von]

believe me i am not saying take it on aregular bases was just mentioning a night thing that works really well for me

max von

[italionstallionl]

i have never been into taking meds if i dont have the symptoms they "cure", but thanks for the help, i gotta check my mail, my stuff should be here today

[dinoiii]

Keep us posted.

I hope they help you out!

[max von]

good night hope you sleep well

max von

[Wardog]

If you are looking for something to help you sleep, our Cold Fusion PM has mild herbal sedatives in it to help you sleep. It can be used safely on a daily basis.

Now in reguards to anxiety issues, I have a few homebrew ideas that can help settle you quite well.

Phenebuit and theanine is a very nice combination. Unfortunatly, you need to cycle this, because phenebuit seems to have a very rapid increase in tolerance in the body.

A personal favorite of mine is phenebuit, L-theanine, epedra and synephrine before going out for the night. The combination makes you very relaxed and sociable, while still mentally alert and sharp. It is a great combo if you are going out to try to meet the ladies.

[max von]

wardog does your cold fusion cause you to wake up refreshed or do you sometimes feel groggy. All so do you have to make sure and take it only if you are able to get a certain amount of sleep. some of the others that i have looked into say take only if you can get a minium of 8 hours of sleep

thanks

max von

[Wardog]

As far as waking up groggy, no one has reported this effect. I am typically a high strung person, and when I get on a roll, with a lot on my plate, I occasionally find it hard to sleep. I will take a slug of CFPM and I find it helps settle me in about 20-30 minutes.

As far as a minimum amount of sleep, I don't think so. I typically do not sleep for more than 5-6 hours a night, and have never had an issue when I wake after taking it.

[max von]

wardog

thanks for the quick response appreciate ill look at it and may try it thanks

max von

[italionstallionl]

i tried knock out a couple nights ago, it worked well for me. i was not tired at all, in fact my heart was going pretty quick because i just finished a poker game with some guys on my hall (it was about 12 30) and i won 60 $, so i was pumped, but knew i had to wake up at 7 for class the next morning. i popped one, and in about 20 min i was much more calm and relaxed, then 5-10 later i was out. this was the 1 night all year i did not wake up one time during the night. usually i have to get up to pee 2-3 times a night, but that night i slept through it all, i woke up and felt great.

[max von]

Italion

i will have to tell my wife about that one she is always up late to doing homework (nursing student) and then has to get up early in the morning for class.

max von

[max von]

Italion

have you heared anything about the use of people under 18yoa. I have a 16 year ols that has trouble sleeping they are talking about Ambien but i dont like the possible habit forming that can come from that

max von

[italionstallionl]

sorry i havent heard of anything about people under 18 taking this, that would probably be a good question for dinoiii to field

[max von]

Dinoiii

if you see this let me know on this thanks

max von

[dinoiii]

Let me be real honest max, clinical experience with this drug is still very limited. Don't get me wrong, it has advantages over benzodiazepines...yet the disadvantages may outweigh the benefits. I predict this one to go the route of Cox-2 inhibitors --> not because there is evidence of it yet, but because how "rushed" clinical trials were with it.

It is rapidly absorbed and luckily has a short elimination 1/2 life. I think the most frequent complication I have heard is GI upset, but a substantial amount of people report nightmares while on this drug. Because there is a general stimulation of the GABA receptor is there it may be reason to be concerned with habitation, however, the withdrawl symptoms are essentially not there so it would be ok to stop Rx when necessary should it be deemed a problem.

There is no clinical comparison nor data of the active ingredients in Knock Out compared to Ambien so I choose to not comment on that. I would have to assume your 16-yr old's MD knows more about his/her condition.

[max von]

dinoiii

thanks for the info that helps alot her mother and i have talked to her doctor several time and i am always nervous of medication that is simply a sleeping pill cause i think its more a depression issue that she does not sleep and Ambien is just covering it up.

Thanks alot


max von

[dinoiii]

Have you guys considered a psychiatrist and/or has your daughter ever used an SSRI?

[max von]

She is seein one now on lexapro but i dont know what that other product that you mentioned is. maybe i should pm you on this so we dont get to personal on here no offense i appreciate your help

maxvon

[max von]

Dinoiii

i just sent you a pm when you have time let me know thanks max von

[Pizzaman]

This is my first post on this site. I haven't use the different products you guys mention but I am using Renu Fit which is sold on this site. It knocks me out cold in about 15 to 20 minutes. I've even found that a 1/2 serving works (5 ml). It's supposed to get you into REM sleep quicker. All I know is that my recovery is great on it. Lastly, little warning here, make sure you have a good 8 hours to sleep or you may sleep thru your alarm. Good luck, ciao

[max von]

pizzaman

do you wake uf feeling groggy cause i hate that feeling

max von

[Pizzaman]

I don't get groggy but I have to have a solid 8 hrs to sleep. I saw Chris@Discountanabolics recomends it earler in this strand too. Also like I mentioned I found a half dose knocked me out just as good so now i have doubled my doses per btl. (probably less chance of being groggy too)

[ghostwheel]

After 14 or 15 sets of various types of bench presses , preparing and consuming a steak, and protein shake, cleaning the dishes, i pretty much just pass out. I always sleep better after working out. Just hope my snoring doesn't blow the roof off my condo.

Now if DA sells an anti- snoring pill let me know. I know some girls who would make me take it.

On the other hand, I knew this one girl who snored real loud and the only way to get her to stop was to have sex with her.

[Pizzaman]

She must of been pretty hot or an animal in the sack to put up with that!! I can't stand snoring if my wife started I may have to suffocate her with my pillow.......... except she's pretty hot and not bad in the sack either ...... but I digress. I usually only need the Renu Fit when I'm really trying to lean down and am on a number of stimulants or when I'm travelling a ton for work.

[caniplaywith_madness]

yes my dr. prescribes diazepam and klonopin for anxiety. the anxiety is most definatly the cause for my insomnia. i have panic attacks also but rarely, ive learned how to cope with them pretty well. theyre horrific. both diazepam and klonopin work well. i try to take the benadryl for a few days then diazepam for a few days then klonopin... hoping that that will help with keeping away addiction but i think needing something EVERY night makes it very hard to keep from being addicted to something.

The valium seems like it would cause interactions with other meds like Benadryl if you were to use them in that type of succession due to some of the metabolites forming really long-acting molecules. It almost seems as though you would potentially be tired all the time if continually cycling in the manner you prescribed.

The problem when you cycle them in this fashion, you may actually be causing a rebound insomnia and I would look into whether or not you were not the source of any sleep disturbance. Your doctor is aware you cycle like this?

Klonopin - I don't personally really like using outside of epileptic cases anymore.

ya my psychiatrist knows that i cycle or sometimes use all three drugs in the same day. in fact thats usually what i do. hes never given me any indication if its good or bad to cycle. would you think that i should cut out the benadryl completely and what about the valium. also why dont you like klonopin? the dosages are pretty small klonopin 0.5 mg. valium 10mg. benadryl 25mg. a big concern is getting addicted of course although if i dont take one of any of those drugs any particular night i dont have any withdrawls as far as i can tell. thanks

[dinoiii]

Madness:

there were a lot of questions in there really.

(1) It seems as though you are doing yourself a misjustice with some of them as I mentioned - a "rebound insomnia" (the opposite of what you want) would be noted in the case of stopping. This is different from withdrawl.

(2) When you have something like a GABAergic (i.e. - valium) and an antihistamine (i.e.- benadryl), there are some potential concerns I have with this combo. First - it could create a comatose state ... btw 10 mg is a large dose of Valium due to its volume of distribution.

(3) Klonopin is exactly like valium - it is a benzo (same mechanism of action and you can supersaturate receptors) - so first you are getting an additive effect and I am not sure what would warrant that.

(4) Additionally Klonopin has some paradoxical effects: Excitability, irritability, aggressive behavior, agitation, nervousness, hostility, anxiety, sleep disturbances, nightmares, and vivid dreams. Do these sound like positives to "relax" you? Again - as an antiseizure medication, I think it is great - for your purposes, not exactly.

(5) How do you define "addiction?" Did you not say you felt as though you "needed" them to get to sleep? I am not slamming you with this comment - am simply curious.

[caniplaywith_madness]

ok so your saying using valium and klonopin together isnt good because they are pretty much the same so why combine them and also klonopin has more side effects. also valium and benadryl should not be taken together because of reactions from combining the drugs. as far as addiction i definatly need something to help me sleep but sinse i can use benadryl one day valium another day and klonopin another day brings me to believe that im not physically addicted to any particular drug its just that i need SOMETHING to help me sleep. maybe im off on my idea about that i dont know. but ya i cant sleep without taking something.
so your suggesting i stick with valium every night to avoid rebounding insomnia?

[dinoiii]

I am saying that there are still some alternatives I think your physician probably needs to look at. And if you use Valium one night and klonopin another, then you get two days of stimulating GABA B receptors...the only break being one day, but due to Vd and 1/2 life, I would say "addiction" in its truest sense is still a possibility.


Clarification: You said you "needed" something to sleep correct?

[max von]

that is very interesting to read dinoiii cause as we talked before that is what they are looking for my daughter to take a valium type medication before bed and then klonipin during the day for aggitation

max von

[dinoiii]

question "aggitation" as a diagnosis. It certainly is NOT in the DSM-IV TR






What doses max?

[max von]

chlordiazapam 25mg 2 before bed and .50 Klonpin as need but usually she take one a day for sure they talk about xanax now .50 cause of the question i have been asking from what you told me i printed the last on think doctor didnt like i knew that much about the drug especially about the ambien

max von

[italionstallionl]

anyone try zma, i have heard a lot of great things about it and it helping with sleep, but it seems kinda weird magnesium and zinc. but the positive reviews are numerous

[ghostwheel]

I went swimming in the Kona lap pool and found it Liquid AND relaxing.

:D

[italionstallionl]

hahahahahahahahaha

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[Pizzaman]

I've always liked ZMA.

[italionstallionl]

pizzaman, does it give you f'ed up dreams?

[Pizzaman]

No but Melatonin does.

[max von]

Italion

did zma give you bad dreams ive heared that is a problem never had that tho. kinda scary tho

max von

[italionstallionl]

ive never used it, ive just read a bunch of reviews (probably like 30-40)saying how good it is, and only like 2 saying it didnt work

[max von]

Ive tried ZMA and never had any sucess with it at all may have been just me as i know some people that like it alot

max von