what are back pumps?

[decker528]

at the risk of sounding stupid, i dont know what people are talking about when they say back pumps. is this good or bad, what is it, what is happening when you get "back pumps?" someone let me know. no smart a**es please.

[thabenjaminz05]

Not a good thing and they dont feel good AT ALL. Most people experience back pumps on a PH/DS/AAS cycle which is the kidneys swelling I believe. It's due to something swelling, I forget exactly what. Taurine and Water helps combat them.

[usf97j4x4]

Its the result of you angering your kidneys. See above for how to combat them.

[LEARN]

at the risk of sounding stupid, i dont know what people are talking about when they say back pumps. is this good or bad, what is it, what is happening when you get "back pumps?" someone let me know. no smart a**es please.

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/search.php

[decker528]

so, would that be the feeling that your midback feels real tight and sore along either side of your spine for no particular reason and it makes you think about kidney stones? if that is the case, ive had it and didnt know what to call it.

[amino89]

Back pumps are usually on the sides of your lower back and are not pleasant. They can restrict ROM a lot, try 3-4 sets of 25 on hyperextensions or some good mornings or deadlifts higher rep and you'll know what they are soon enough. :D

[neonhypoxia]

so, would that be the feeling that your midback feels real tight and sore along either side of your spine for no particular reason and it makes you think about kidney stones? if that is the case, ive had it and didnt know what to call it.

That sounds about right.

Supposedly they are due to your RBC going up and that causing complications with blood flow through the kidneys. However I've never seen any sort of lab work that actually backs this up and there are several points to that theory that don't add up. For example it doesn't make sense at all that taurine clears up back pumps if its from RBC. Oh well, either way you know what to do about it.

[Trans_Isomer]

Taurine considerations and PH/PS/DeS/AAS

The coupling of this compound with many of these agents, most notable SD is secondary to a few things...

lets digress for a moment

"BACK PUMPS" are the kidneys until proven otherwise, I am fine to suggest this kidney aggitation of sort being secondary to an increased blood volume secondary to increased Hematocrit and ion depostion. You might ask well, how the hell does this work dinoiii if you think its blood volume and the like...well a great % of your cardiac output need be filtered by the kidneys and there are a slew of smaller vessels within the kidney that are very pertinent (but I will save the anatomy lesson in this one).

Taurine in and of itself aids this scenario by potentiating increases in cell volume via effects in the ion-flux and nutrient gated transport.

BUT HOLD THE PHONE, THAT'S NOT ALL!!!

90% of bb's also have a simple deficiency of taurine to begin with. You may say, so what you're telling me is that correction of the deficiency is going to alleviate my symptoms, right?

NOT EXACTLY!

What I will say is that deficiency of taurine contributes to elevated blood pressure in people with hypertension. And what you get when you go on a PH/PS/AAS cycle is the potential for increased blood pressure. Limited research has found that supplementation with taurine lowers blood pressure in animals and in people. This is hypothesized through a reduction in the hormone epinephrine. Because, yup - you guessed it...increased blood through the tiny blood vessels of the kidney even produces issue with the organ tissue itself.

So, I ingest a couple caps of taurine and I am fine. Well - in a placebo-oriented world ... maybe, but a couple caps has NOT corrected the deficiency I describe above.

Most people don't dose taurine appropriately to begin with, taurine in the average 70kg individual (or 154 pounds for the "metrically"-deficient Americans reading along) should be dosed at 6 GRAMS to see true efficacy. For the average 200 pound bb, this is increased to about 7 GRAMS, higher weight...likely as high as 8 or 9 to accomplish satisfaction of volume of distribution differences.


--------------------




So - let's summarize the dinoiii-model of taurine "Back-Pump" alleviation shall we (in a cliff-notes version):

Pathway #1: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Taurine ingestion --> Ion Flux, Nutrient-Gated Transport (Volume Correction Factor)

Pathway #2: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Inc BP --> Taurine ingestion --> Dec Epinephrine --> Dec BP


End Result of Both = Contribution to Dec "Back Pumps" (aka - kidney pains).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[neonhypoxia]

Yeah, but again it doesn't really explain it. For example why is it pumps don't occur even in severe taurine deficiency if not accompanied by a steroid? Plus creatine is apparently just as good at preventing it. And why is it that the same effect should occur in the liver and pancreas but doesn't? Plus why is it that many people get the same effect in muscles in other parts of their body? I've had the exact same effect as a back pump in my biceps and calves more often than in my back. So I'm still considering it an unknown as of now, but one that I know how to prevent.

[Nex]

Yeah, but again it doesn't really explain it. For example why is it pumps don't occur even in severe taurine deficiency if not accompanied by a steroid? Plus creatine is apparently just as good at preventing it. And why is it that the same effect should occur in the liver and pancreas but doesn't? Plus why is it that many people get the same effect in muscles in other parts of their body? I've had the exact same effect as a back pump in my biceps and calves more often than in my back. So I'm still considering it an unknown as of now, but one that I know how to prevent.
I absolutly agree with you..
This is my 'hypotheses' if you would..

Yes, exogenus anabolic androgens increase bloodflow and protein syntheses. What happens when you do a nice set of hammer curls? you get blood pumps, what about tricep pushdowns? heavy bloodpumps again right? Even a good chest shoulder lat workout? yes you get heavy bloodpumps.
Has it ever occured that we do have spinal erectors along with other muscles in our lower back that tend to be the most used muscles in our body! we use it to stabalize our heavy ass dumbells when we lift them off the rack, we use them to stableize our form during multiple workouts such as Military press, or bicep curls or even standing over the head extensions. We defenatly use them when we do squats, deadlifts, or lying leg curls!
Lets say we werent on anything. We take a week or two off the gym. Lets go back now and do some squats and clean and jerks.. Whats soar the next morning? Our hampstrings and lower back! its muscle soarness not kidney soarness! We have internal obliques as well that spread around towards our back as well as ot her muscle tissue guarding our kidneys! My best guess is that the back pumps would be from the supporting back lower back muscles and internal obliques.
Remember, even if you avoid working your lower back muscles like the plague they are still being used and extensive amount during other movements, even running!
food for thought.

[dinoiii]

Yeah, but again it doesn't really explain it. For example why is it pumps don't occur even in severe taurine deficiency if not accompanied by a steroid?

Says who? We DO know how rampant taurine deficiency is; what you are apparently postulating is that you have data to contradict this notion, correct? Please show me the source of your serum values on apparent taurine proficiency in steroid/bodybuilders.


Plus creatine is apparently just as good at preventing it.

Says who?


And why is it that the same effect should occur in the liver and pancreas but doesn't?

Careful...GI accessory organs have dual blood supply (portal and systemic).



Plus why is it that many people get the same effect in muscles in other parts of their body?

Quite the exagerrated pontification; but think about it really hard and tell me if you haven't already answered why this is in the above. C'mon - you seem to be straining a bit too hard to "prove" me wrong.



I've had the exact same effect as a back pump in my biceps and calves more often than in my back. So I'm still considering it an unknown as of now, but one that I know how to prevent.

Consider away. Reality measures dictate in most instances, however.



D_

[neonhypoxia]

2 Says who? We DO know how rampant taurine deficiency is; what you are apparently postulating is that you have data to contradict this notion, correct? Please show me the source of your serum values on apparent taurine proficiency in steroid/bodybuilders.




3 Says who?




Careful...GI accessory organs have dual blood supply (portal and systemic).





4 Quite the exagerrated pontification; but think about it really hard and tell me if you haven't already answered why this is in the above. C'mon - you seem to be straining a bit too hard to "prove" me wrong.





1 Consider away. Reality measures dictate in most instances, however.



D_

1. First off, yes I know I didn't number it "in order" and instead I numbered in the manner in which I wish to respond. Your disregard for the scientific process in many instances bothers me to say the least. Lets keep in mind that I am a scientist, and you need to give atleast a far amount of evidence to state a claim as if it were fact. As an interesting proposition, or as potential advice is one thing, but not as fact. If an error is pointed out it isn't the other person's responsiblity to prove you wrong. The error pointed out should be addressed by the one making the claim. You have not actually given any evidence at all that taurine is the culprit in back pumps, and yet you are acting as if its proven completely and the case is closed. Granted considering the subject good evidene would be hard to produce and I definetly have to give you that, but you are giving me sh*t for considering the case to still be open.

2. I did not at all state that taurine deficiency isn't common, infact my statement was based upon how common it is. Infact I feel that taurine should be used all the time, not just while on cycle. It is very common, and yet most people do not claim to experience back pumps all the time, just when using steroids. Thus a major problem with your taurine deficiency claim.

3. Everyone I know of who has used creatine instead of taurine on cycle has said it alleviates back pumps. Granted I have no study showing the rate at which creatine adminstration alleviates back pumps to compare to taurine, you haven't presented data showing how taurine deficiency responsible either. For any further questions about creatine's effectiveness with regard to this I'll refer you to Voodoo who often advocates the use of creatine for back pumps. I do infact use taurine for back pumps, but I use it all the time to begin with. I'm also not a fan of the concept of using creatine while on cycle, but that is do to me being overly cautious and the point remains the creatine appears just as effective.

4. Please inform me of how this was already answered. Please enlighten me as to why it is that when exactly the same effect is seen in other parts of the body it is somehow not appropriate to state that they could be the same thing? I've seen nothing at all from you showing that the effect isn't in the muscles of the back instead of in the kidneys. Oh and just because they say its in the area of the kidneys means nothing. You are a doctor, you should be familiar with the concept of deferred pain and how pain in a muscle in the back could feel like it was in the kidneys instead. So I think the comparison to exactly the same effect in other areas of the body is appropriate.

So please Dinoiii tell me why it is that I'm apparently oh so stupid for considering this to still be an open case. Please, show me the way with your absoluely brilliant mind that noone can ever hope to even come close to and why it is that I am oh so naive for not instantly assuming you are correct although you barely made a case at all.

[LEARN]

I love this stuff :D

[ShiftyCapone]

Very interesting little debate here......well, that is if dinoiii ever stops back in. He hasn't been around DA much at all lately...

[kumora]

...Supposedly they are due to your RBC going up and that causing complications with blood flow through the kidneys. However I've never seen any sort of lab work that actually backs this up and there are several points to that theory that don't add up. For example it doesn't make sense at all that taurine clears up back pumps if its from RBC. Oh well, either way you know what to do about it.
FYI: I ran Bold for 14 weeks at 800mg ED and had no back pumps. I bring this up because Bold is known for raising RBC. Back pumps where pretty bad on my SD 30mg ED and Trenadrol 60-90mg ED (separate) cycles.