PCT

[dinoiii]

I think this was a forum in desperate need of a poll like this. There are many things to take for your "on" cycles right now, but I think many questions remain for what to take while "off."
Only listed in this post are current anti-estrogens/anti-aromatase options. For liver function improval, please see another post.
Please include your doses in posts or alternate options not listed.


The pharmaceutics I have included at the end of the supplement list. I pick these, because with all PCT bodybuilders, these are the ones I have experience with in prescribing and/or using. If someone has a favorite I have left off please let the forum know in a post.

[italndiesel]

I actually did Novladex from my doctor - it was amazing how it leans you out and rids the water.

[SNS8778]

Just wanted to address that the reason I am not chiming in here is because from a company perspective I have to be careful on how my response would go on this since many of the products listed are not supplements, but drugs.

Just wanted to address that so people reading would not wonder why I was not responding.

[AXResources]

The only thing I can recomend is 6oxo. That is what most of my customers take and they love it.

[dinoiii]

Steve or Leonard?


How about any "T booster" category supplements like

Trib or Eurycoma?

I have used Tribex from Biotest in the past and while I cannot really chime in on the science b/c I think it is one that doesn't work on paper. However, that being said...I can tell you that I think it somehow is VERY ANDROGENIC: while taking it, I would notice full beard growth within 6 hours...mind you, I am normally one of those shaving every other day is ok kind of guys.

While at the hospital, patients actually questioned if I was the same guy by the end of a 10-hour shift. This may sound unreal and believe me, because I don't think the science works, I would love to concur...unfortunately cannot.

Note: this was the old version of Tribex (pre-nanodispersion) so I am not giving testimony to the new "original blue pill" product.

[SNS8778]

I personally think that Tribulus has some pros and cons, and we are researching how to isolate the pros while eliminating the cons of it. Sorry for being so vague, but we are putting alot of $ into this research and I do not want to share much of the info we are finding until the research and version is completed.

Eurycoma:
We have looked into this and I think it is beneficial in some regards. There are many different standardizations available.

If my responses sound vague towards non-ph test boosters, please understand that it is because of the amount of research we are having done by various labs and individuals into the subject. Once the research is completed I will be much more thorough on my opinions towards these items. I just think there alot of things that could have been done a long time ago in this industry in relation to this subject matter that should have been done; now that we are working on it, I don't want to post ideas for others to copy at this point.

[dinoiii]

I hear you! When planning my own company a while back, I made a comment I wish I could have taken back over on the Syntrax board. I am actually very glad you responded that way.

[max von]

dinoiiii
why is it that people take clomid my wife and i are tring to have another kid and they gave her clomid so what does it do for men as i understood it raised my wife ability to get her pregnant

max von

[dinoiii]

This is a great question Max.

Clomid (aka its generic name - clomiphene)
is actually a pretty old drug

It has a dual mechanism of action - or more appropriately worded - duel effect, the mechanism is actually the same, just with different end effects

(1) It's a competitive inhibitor of endogenous estrogens, which makes it invaluable to bodybuildrs for PCT use. If estrogen cannot bind to the receptors, it cannot stimulate its effects.

(2) It's also an ovulation-stimulating agent. Think of it this way....right before you get ovulation in a woman's menstrual cycle, you get a huge Estrogen surge (which is an example of only a couple POSITIVE feedback mechanisms in the endocrine system) which stimulates an LH surge which in turn cause a follicle to release an oocyte - an egg (ovulation). Now, in your wife's situation, think if the estrogen receptors are occupied by something, they still create this POSITIVE feedback system thereby permitting an increased ovulation making the conditions more optimal for sperm penetration into the egg.


Does this make sense? Thank you so much for letting me talk endocrinology.

[Founder]

Wow, what a poll dino.

Take in to consideration what you’re coming off of. Some anti-estrogens are also anti-androgens. Like 4-OH-AD.

[max von]

Dinoiii
you welcome but thanks for explaining that to me kinda funny i ask her doctor and the answer i got was so confusing i was lost. Kinda nice i can go to a site like this and get the answer that kina cracks me up

max von

[dinoiii]

Take in to consideration what you’re coming off of. Some anti-estrogens are also anti-androgens. Like 4-OH-AD.

WARNING: This is a very involved response. Not into the science, you will not be into this post. To avoid science you may already be aware of, you can skip to thesection on OUR DISCUSSION of 4-OH, AD

4-OH-AD is an interesting little drug, errrr...supplement very close in structure to a legal Tamoxifen. I am content you called me on this info Chris, b/c there are 2 things I did not get into discussion of b/c of how indepth an endocrine discussion could go were #1. the pulsatile release fashion of certain hormones in your body and #2. why you could successfully take a "supplement" like this with success which is more related to it behaving in different ways with different dosing patterns - even post-cycle even if there was potential for it to work as an anti-androgen.

The first thought. GnRH is released in bursts or what are known as "pulses" (why its called pulsatile release) from your hypothalamus. Pulsatile GnRH in turn elicits pulsatile release of the gonadotropins, LH and FSH from the anterior pituitary gland. The following process takes place roughly every 90-120 minutes in a male who is not taking PHs or steroids. Frequent samplng of GnRH from the pituitary portal system would reveal a serum concentration that mimicks that of post-prandial insulin release with one exception, there is no necessity for its stimulation with any extraneous stimulus. In other words, you get consistent peaks and valleys if I were to plot it out on a graph. This happens on a continual basis all day long. [For those that do not recall what the heck happens with LH...it stimulates the Leydig Cells in the testis to secrete Testosterone, so this is our link to what follows].

There are 2 ways in which you can inhibit this process: (1) via inhibin which is beyond the scope of this post, (2) via exogenous test stimulation (i.e.-prohormones) which inhibits this process by a negative feedback loop imperative for our discussion.

While "on," men lack this normal pulse frequency, b/c this HPA axis (probably better referenced as HPG - hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis to avoid redundancy actually is a better term) is functionally down-regulated.

Lets fast forward: Wham, we stop our PH use!!! There is a low-normal gonadotropin value - inappropriately so, b/c with the exogenous withdrawl, testosterone feedback is now ALSO missing. FSH and LH should now be high in the presence of low testosterone, but they have not been regenerated.

OUR DISCUSSION of 4-OH AD: we are essentially looking to restore directed pulsatile GnRH. This is where appropriate dosing of such a cpd comes into play. Such a cpd's success depends highly on whether its administered CONTINUOUSLY or DISCONTINUOUSLY (why there are a lot of people who mess up tamoxifen and/or clomid dosing and wind up in worse shape).

If administered CONTINUOUSLY: it will result in DOWN-REGULATION of Pituitary LH and FSH over time. This property has been exploited clinically as long-acting GnRH agonists are used to produce chemical castration in men with prostate cancer b/c prostate cancer is androgen-dependent. This dosing pattern has also been used to treat precocious puberty but is not generally regarded as safe anymore if an endocrine clinic is up to date on the latest research.

If administered DISCONTINUOUSLY: it will act in a way that generates enough of the pulsatile fashion to return b/c in a way, I suppose you could think of it as pulsatile administration. You are attempting stimulation of a pulsatile GnRH pump in a way that better suits the body. This prevents the down-regulatory process b/c it is like a postive signal, then a negative signal, then a positive signal, etc....which regenerates the homeostatic response.


Alternatively, and I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT ANYONE READ THIS TRY THIS WITHOUT A PHYSICIAN'S GUIDANCE,

you can try a GnRH mixed agonist + antagonist

-OR-

antagonist + continual Testosterone administration of the exogenous variety for a period prior to full removal of the exogenous source. This kind of follows the same theory as listed in the "DOSAGE" post I put forth.




Additionally, worth mentioning are all the metabolites of 4-OH, AD. 4-OH, AD undergoes extensive metabolism yielding numerous metabolites, the major ones being the N-desmethyl-, 4-hydroxy- and N-oxide tam-derivatives. Also, smaller amounts of -hydroxy-tam, -hydroxy-tam-N-oxide, -hydroxy-N-desmethyl-tam, 4-hydroxy-tam-N-oxide, 3,4-dihydroxy-tam, 3',4'-dihydroxy-tam, and tam-1,2-epoxide have been observed. Without getting into discussion about how each of these interacts individually, I can offer the following, the major products will give you an actual mixed agonist + antagonist response (i.e.- some work in opposite modes producing its actual pharmaceutical response) - NOW, IF ONLY WE COULD EXTRACT and seperate metabolites and bottle it up, think of where we'd be.



I hope no one fell asleep. Bottom Line: read up on how to use each one prior to actual administration.

[Founder]

Yeah dinoiii, I did fall asleep.

http://www.primobolan.com/clinical_studies.htm

[max von]

see Dinoiii you did it again to me you lost me on that way to much for me to digest. By the way my wife read you response to the clomid question and said thanks that helped her

max von

[TheKoos]

How does this keep showing up as a recent post??? Anyone else notice this?

[RisingAgainst]

Several times lately with several different posts... and here I was hoping you had something really sweet to contribute to this post... hehe jk man, I love your posts.

[VolPower]

Trib! and whatever ingredient is in Inhibit-E (i think its the same basically as novadex XT isnt it?) not sure

[rainman]

How does this keep showing up as a recent post??? Anyone else notice this?


everytime someone votes, it bumps it to the top, even if they dont post anything.

[Voodoo]

my pct is your suggestion of 6bromo...