ABBS

[michael]

I AM OVER WEIGHT AND MOST IF NOT ALL IS IN THE BELLY AND I HAVE LOST 15 LBS WITH A FAT BURNER AND MY WORKOUT BUT I HAVE STOPPED LOSING WEIGHT BUT I STILL HAVE THE BELLY I CAN DO SITUPS TILL I PUKE BUT STILL HAVE NO SUCESS. I KNOW I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM. I JUST CANT TO SEEM TO LOSE THE FAT. ANY COMMENT ARE WELCOME.

[max von]

try to jump your cardio way up also if you can replace a meal with a good protien. Dont get to hung up on diet pills cause some will work and some just never do. Try to eat 6-7 meals a day so that you are never really hungry that way you will avoid that point where you are starving and then you overeat and your body cant process all that food. Also keep in mind it takes about 20 for your stomach to tell your brain that you are full and you can consume alot of calories in that time. Good luck keep working hard and you will get it we were all there at one point trying to change our bodies

max von

[dinoiii]

Well here is variation:

This is my belief and what I certainly would offer patients, etc...

I partly agree with Max and partly do not

1st - IF DIET IS CHECKED IN, CARDIO IS A NON-NECESSITY. IF anyone was familiar with the Syntrax boards from a couple years ago, I posted an article entitled, "Cardio Crazy!" I intended on it being a two-part article yet never got around to posting the second part because it was just not applicable and their boards went temporarily out of service - and now temporary seems to have become permanent. There are some current problems in the management of Syntrax right now as Derek Cornelius now simply consults, etc... and no longer is the Pres/CEO - though this may be the beginning of the end of a truly gifted company with some great products - retired and those that remain. I will post both articles on here at a soon to be released date.

2nd - Diet Pills
Now, I agree reliance on from many people with diet not checked in completely and many pills just simply not working is a reality.
But, also...lets take another thing into consideration --- instead of saying that diet pills don't work, perhaps it is that people do NOT use them properly to get them to work correctly.
One thing to do with diet pills, especially things that increase catecholamines --> THEY MUST BE CYCLED!!! If you want the scientific rationale, I could give it...but understand one thing that they do is increasing thermogenesis via many mechanisms....unfortunately through autoregulation, that means you only have 3 days before your blood vessels allow homeostasis to return to normal. Now, another thing you have to worry about and protect against is staving off muscle tissue in the process of their use.

Try this:
Day 1: Use thermos 1-2 times per day (SHOCK)
Day 2: Use thermos 2-3 times per day
Day 3: Use thermos 1-2 times per day
Day 4: OFF
Day 5: Use thermos 1-2 times per day (SHOCK)
Day 6: Use thermos 2-3 times per day
Day 7: Use thermos 1-2 times per day
Day 8: OFF
.......repeat................
After one month's time, TAKE ONE COMPLETE MONTH OFF MINIMALLY BEFORE USING THEM AGAIN. Remember supplements are meant to do just that "supplement" the diet not make up for a bad one. In the same sense remember in allowing some exogenous manipulator enter your system, you MUST ALLOW IT TO WORK WITH YOUR BODY...try and understand why you're using it and how your body will respond to it. I think the error in a fat burner's use is just as much at fault as automatically claiming they dont have their place.

[max von]

dinoiii would this work with any fat burner my wife is taking hot rox as i have talked about before would you recommend the same thing for her she is 5"00 115lbs just was wondering if that would be to much for her. she i just looking to get a little smaller around the waist i some time worry that it is to strong. I cant take those supp for health reasons so i dont have much experience with them thats why its nice to have some one like you on here

max von

[dinoiii]

Ok, Hot Rox is truthfully a quality product. It is actually one of the few products I would put at the top of the list right now as far as fat burners go in tiratricol or ephedra's absence.

Cycling is appropriate for Hot Rox too, however - Nano dispersion and A7E probably allow longer cycling periods as it is spread out over time in its release into the system. How far off is your wife for achieving her goals? If she is close, I may have a better suggestion for her. Also, how has she been tolerating Hot Rox? It really shouldn't create the jittery complaints, etc... as other fat burners may b/c of its slower release.

Let me know about the goals and I will get back with you for something to try for your wife. It may be what she is looking for, but it too is strong. How serious is her dieting style? What long term goals does she have? Is this a plan for a hot summer, etc....? I guess what I am saying - does she feel she needs to achieve a certain weight by?

[max von]

dinoiii she is 115 lbs right now and her goal is to tighten her stomach and glutes her diet is pretty clean but she is very carb sensitive as far a weight she prob does not want to lose much more that 5lbs or she looks to skinny when we first got together she was 95lbs way to small. As far a sides she has not noticed any jitters or anything like that but does feel the heat from it and in her words has been "bitchy" latley wondering if this could be from that. Hey also when i look at the bottom of the forum it shows one person hidden is that you and how do you do that i check and it never shows you on

max von

[wedgylx]

I AM OVER WEIGHT AND MOST IF NOT ALL IS IN THE BELLY AND I HAVE LOST 15 LBS WITH A FAT BURNER AND MY WORKOUT BUT I HAVE STOPPED LOSING WEIGHT BUT I STILL HAVE THE BELLY I CAN DO SITUPS TILL I PUKE BUT STILL HAVE NO SUCESS. I KNOW I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM. I JUST CANT TO SEEM TO LOSE THE FAT. ANY COMMENT ARE WELCOME.

I've got to disagree with dinolii here (But you knew it was coming :wink: )

I'm still a strong supporter of cardio. I keep it short and sweet with HIIT workouts. Once I started using HIIT the fat burnt like never before and the sessions are short enough that you dont go too catabolic.

I can't be bothered with the %of maximum heartrate stuff, so i just ran it simple like this on either a bike or elliptical (i found bike to be better since the elliptical will tire out your legs quick while running this, and my legs were getting tired before i was even that out of breath) or you can do it out jogging NOT ON A TREADMILL:

2 minute warmup at a slow pace
30seconds of balls to the wall pumping...AS HARD AS YOU CAN
30seconds very light jog
30seconds of balls to the wall pumping...AS HARD AS YOU CAN
30seconds very light jog
30seconds of balls to the wall pumping...AS HARD AS YOU CAN
30seconds very light jog
30seconds of balls to the wall pumping...AS HARD AS YOU CAN
30seconds very light jog
(KEEP GOING UNTIL YOU NO LONGER CAN!)
end with 2 mins cooldown at a very slow pace.

when you first start you wont last long....even when you're in good shape you wont last long if you're really going all out during the 30 seconds of "balls to the wall" cardio.

No more than 20 mins! If you're weight training 3-4 days a week, then do this cardio the three days that you dont train

[italionstallionl]

gonna try that cardio tomorrow, sounds like it will get the heart racing. lol im looking forward to it

[dinoiii]

Max:

Ok, no...I think that your wife does NOT need anything more severe than that and it may be even questionable as to whether she needs the Hot Rox at her weight. What is her height?


Wedgylx:

Hey --> no prob,
First of all HIIT is not the same type of "cardio" many prescribe to. Understand one thing...the reason many followers of HIIT have found success is because they are still luxuriously working anaerobically for 1/2 the time as opposed to complete aerobic work. Certainly, it is better - one step up compared to strict aerobic training - however, imagine if you could eliminate it and be that much better. Your defense of it makes me question whether your diet is checked in completely. Cardio is simply a way to burn extra calories --> if they are not consumed in the first place it is highly unnecessary. Resistance Training is a way to change body composition. IN addition, you get the luxury of burning muscle with extra activity. Choose your activities wisely guys and gals.

[max von]

Dinoiii she is 5'00 tall and 115 might be adding a couple. Also how do you get yourself hidden your never listed as logged on

max von

[wedgylx]

Your defense of it makes me question whether your diet is checked in completely.

i defend it because it works for me. When i'm on a cut my diet is great....no diet is ever perfect but i keep mine quite clean. I'm not ready to cut around 1000+ calories from my diet per week which is already meager in comparison to my bulking diet. Instead I do cardio.

Perhaps you can enlighten me to a cutting diet I could follow, not do cardio, and lose weight while not starving to death or having my carbs so low that my energy is non existent? Until then I'll stand by cardio.

I thought "it depends" was always the right answer? Or is that only when noone disagrees with you?

Naturally noone NEEDS cardio. But it sure as hell is a great way to develope a larger caloric deficit isnt it? Maybe you should try using HIIT along with your perfect diet? I can assure you it would be helpful.

Plus I dont want to be lean....i want to be lean and in shape. Those DO NOT necessarily come hand in hand. I'm hefty right now from my bulk which began in october. When me and my buddies get together for a fun football game or pond hockey i can still fly by most of them no matter how skinny they are. I participate in this Iron Game to make the most of my body. Aesthetically? of course! But as long as I workout I am trying to get my body to run at its peak performance, and cardiovascular training is a large portion of that.

Lastly don't think I am picking a fight or something. I am just offerring my opinion which just so happens to be in opposition to yours. And this isnt just theory or idea, this is coming from experience from someone who has dieted before. I'm not saying dieting without cardio wouldnt work. We all know thats not true! Sure there are weeks where we dont get cardio in while cutting, but saying cardio doesnt speed the process of dropping weight is just a lie. And I'm not talking by the scale, I'm talking by the calipers and by the measuring tape.

[dinoiii]

Max: hidden is an option on the Profile section.

I ONLY remain that way b/c I leave many windows up on my screen throughout the day but that does not mean I remain at the computer.

Otherwise, I would change my status, but I don't want to mislead anyone.

[dinoiii]

I don't care to pick a fight either. You speak with great passion Wedgylx and I like that. There is no reason you should not be defending your position, but in the same sense, understand I will throw back my own defense as well. I think it is appropriate.

If applying the "appropriate" bulk session with minimal adipose gain...there is essentially no reason to need to justify a heavy dieting phase. I think oftentimes, people's justification to go on a less-than-stellar calorie increment session (i.e.- all out feeding frenzy and call it a bulk up) lies in their dire need for extra calorie burn in the form of monotonous muscle-stripping activity.

And while on that point, for every pound of lean tissue, you burn up to an extra 35 calories per hour...you multiply that by 12 hours x 365 days per year and see how people are simply screwing up chewing muscle tissue away.

I am confused with where you are coming from with saying that because you can run endless miles and even at a high speed smoking other athletes equates with being "in shape" and yet being lean doesn't. Yes, you are conditioned to run faster, but I have NEVER contested that cardio in any form could not be goal specific. By all means if running faster is your goal, run like the wind.

[dinoiii]

Oh yeah, and my "perfect" diet - is simply eu-science.

The pseudo-science you have apparently fallen victim to is all that is preached by the countless people in the fitness industry looking to sell you their next fancy gadget. Keep making them richer - I don't consider you at fault.

[wedgylx]

Oh yeah, and my "perfect" diet - is simply eu-science.

The pseudo-science you have apparently fallen victim to is all that is preached by the countless people in the fitness industry looking to sell you their next fancy gadget. Keep making them richer - I don't consider you at fault.

I whole-heartledly agree with you that all out bulking isnt the best of ideas. However over the summer i had a serious injury that prevented me from working out and i lost everything i had worked so hard to achieve. Its very disheartening and I wanted the muscle back at any cost. I bumped my diet up to 4200+ calories a day and i got great gains (but did get pretty fat). My diet definitely had its flaws while on this bulk, but the good thing about the bulk is i was still getting adequate amounts of what i need. I'm also running my first ph cycle currently and wanted calories to be high for this. I want to get the most of my money.

As far as my cut, I'm not throwing myself directly into a major defecit. If I did of course my muscle would be stripped away. In late march I'm going to start dropping my cals slowly. Along with cardio, and supplements (ECY, clen) i should be able to get alot of my fat off by mid to late summer. I dont think I'll run into much trouble in the muscle category

[italionstallionl]

what kind of supps do you take when you are cutting

[italionstallionl]

overall i am quite lean, but have some lower belly fat, i do abs and am able to see uppers when flexed, but there has to be a good inch to 2 inches of fat around my lowers, any ideas of how to clean that up

[wedgylx]

I'm sure you know theres no such thing as spot-reduction (aside from topical lotions which is more for adipose fat i beleive) so the only way to lose fat around the belly is to lose fat everywhere. Good ways to do that are ECY, ECA, Clen, and there are a few other thermos out now but not as good as the other three for fat loss. Naturally a clean diet will help. And as you read I personally get good results from cardio

[italionstallionl]

thanks for the recommendations, but that is really the only area on my entire body where there is fat. maybe it just goes along with bulking, so i will suck it up and wait til i start cutting to worry about it. but i have heard of a few people getting good results from topicals like absolved

[wedgylx]

thanks for the recommendations, but that is really the only area on my entire body where there is fat. maybe it just goes along with bulking, so i will suck it up and wait til i start cutting to worry about it. but i have heard of a few people getting good results from topicals like absolved

anythings worth a try.

[italionstallionl]

did the hiit cardio today that wed was talking about. raining here so i did it on a treadmill, and to make up for the time it took for the speed to get up and back down i made the intervals 1 min long. i min of 10 mph 1 min of 7 mph. definitely felt the burn, it was nice, gonna keep doin it, seems to make the time go by faster too. thanks for the idea

[wedgylx]

did the hiit cardio today that wed was talking about. raining here so i did it on a treadmill, and to make up for the time it took for the speed to get up and back down i made the intervals 1 min long. i min of 10 mph 1 min of 7 mph. definitely felt the burn, it was nice, gonna keep doin it, seems to make the time go by faster too. thanks for the idea

no problem!

Yeah i never use a treadmill because of the time it takes to switch speeds.

I use bike's mostly or just jog outside....so next time its less than perfect out i might try it on bike if I were you

[max von]

keep talking guys this is a good conversation and i am likikng it. always like to here both side and learn

max von

[dinoiii]

Yawn! See ya had me wedgylx over on the ole roiderkid post and ya lost me here. Poor stallion will probably also submit to abdominal training as well. I second the ideas of many of the guys on the Avant Labs board (quality bunch of guys really - though science junkies like myself) as to cardio and abdominal exercise being pointless.

So, stallion - try it that way and in a few months when you see no change, perhaps we can address the real issues. Of course, if you guys knew me very well and perhaps you will I am kidding - to each his own.

However, as I will revamp (update) the cardio crazy article and post it very soon - perhaps, you will abandon this foolishness. Again - let me get this straight stallion, is it body composition you want or is it endurance? I know, I know - I will stop the jabs at wedgylx but hey ya know. :roll:

[italionstallionl]

lol, dinioiii you just crushed my feelings of accomplishment. j/k. anyway i just cant comprehend how doing cardio is pointless. as well as abdominal exercises. it seems like not only are you increasing endurance, but also burning fat. i also thought the fact that getting the heart pumpin kept it strong and aids in a healthy life. im looking forward to the article on cardio because right now i dont see the downside

[italionstallionl]

back to my post a little earlier about the fat around my lower abs. do you think the fact that i eat so much before i go to sleep contributes to this?
before bed i have pb sandwich on light wheat
cottage cheese
and a protein shake w/milk

[dinoiii]

Am I to assume that is non-fat cottage cheese -and- skim milk?

Am I also to assume teh light wheat bread is somehow carb free?

The conundrum I see that has developed is not so much how you eat per se, but the types of macros you eat:
-if it is non-fat of both milk products, then that drives the carbs up and coupled with the wheat bread = TOO MANY CARBS
-on the other hand, if it is ANY kind of fatty milk product, milk fat is the hardest kind of fat to digest for the body


Hmmmmm....what to do?

[dinoiii]

As for supplements to take - I DO NOT take fat-loss supplements. Recall, I was formerly very fat, so no it is not like I am gifted with genetics either.

This too is a rather involved discussion that probably warrants its own thread. Look cardio + "fat" loss supplements chew away muscle tissue....muscle is the MOST METABOLICALLY ACTIVE tissue in the body ---> by decreasing it, you start out with a lower baseline caloric expenditure in the first place. Does this make sense?

"fat" loss supplements in fact = "weight" loss supplements b/c the catabolic effect they have overall.

[dinoiii]

Sure cardio makes you feel like superman. THIS IS PURELY an ENDORPHIN (endogenous) rush!!! The same hormonal pathways are not stimulated via weight training if not using high reps.


Now, even superman has his cryptonite!!!

[dinoiii]

You have the classic body type I descirbed in a previous post that I call
"THIN FAT!" You are not alone with this physique type.


Abdominal training is highly unecessary --> all people's abs are "developed." It is solely whether there is a layer of fat that covers the top of them that makes them look terrible. You are training your abs through squats and deadlifts as well, ya know?

If you want a more "ripped" look with the endorphin rush + muscle --> incorporate big olympic full body lifts for starters: clean + presses, clean + jerks, etc...

[dinoiii]

And finally - with the cardio...


cardiac muscle tissue IS NOT THE SAME HISTOLOGICALLY SPEAKING as skeletal muscle. Do you hear of multiple cases of enlarged hearts being a good thing? Nope - there is a reason, ya know?

[italionstallionl]

all i can say is wow. and yes it is non fat milk and non fat cottage cheese. i agree my abs are developed, as i can feel them quite easily, and like i said when i flex i can see the uppers, so i will try the bigger lifts as you suggested, thanks a lot for your help, i really appreciate it

[Okstate132]

Just stumbled across this and found it interesting........ Dinoiii are you saying cardio is good for nothing but endurance and releasing endorphins???

[B-natural]

mother of God! How did I miss this convo, got in depth fast.

So, I need to change up my bulk as I have read. Which I understand and it is very logical.

Fat burners don't serve a true purpose other than quick fix? not even in cyclic fashion as you have given suggestions to others (granted they asked)?

Cardio is only necessary if diet is not in check and/or it is brought on by specific need (speed, sports, etc)

Ab exercises? Now here's my issue, as I recently competed, I did ltd ab exercises, even made mention of it. However, I was doing ab exercises for the past few weeks 2-3 times per week, in circuit fashion with ltd rest after each circuit. I feel leaner, I am leaner, and like I stated above, my diet is not exactly in check. I also felt that in h.s. when I did abs 3-4 times per week my abs were chiseled, I was doing cardio at this point too, but theres something about them that I simply feel leaner. But lately its been a chore to do them. So, are you saying don't do abs period? or don't go crazy as Joe "Abzilla" Schmo and do them after each workout or 3 times per week? Keep em at 1 or 2? or do you feel that is pushing it too? I don't do deadlifts currently, but I am willing to start, back thickness is always an issue. However the clean and press is too much jerking on a frequently sore shoulder for me...

anyways, hopefully you can find a way to address these too dinoiii...

and sry for the thread jack

P.S. D, your book needs to come out soon. I need some true info here, as a trainer I can't try and toss out years in the industry hooplah out the window and say follow me. This seems surreal, some of the things leave me asking how. So, hopefully soon, or just do what writers do, drive off, to a cabin, finish the book, call a publisher, and BAM! Of course don't get all Johnny Depp, Secret Window crazy, anywho, need more info, but at a somewhat sub-scientific (not a word, least I don't think) level for now. Body Opus Reloaded was interesting though :D

[Okstate132]

I had all those same question to B nat, I cant believe I just read this, I want on the inside of all this info:D If I'm doing abs and cardio and I dont have to, I wanna know about it:o

[dinoiii]

I am about 74 pages in to a 300-page book edit to be released later this year (probably about 2 or 3 months off, but the publisher will dictate) with so much more info about these concepts.


Just stumbled across this and found it interesting........ Dinoiii are you saying cardio is good for nothing but endurance and releasing endorphins???

Well, I am in an indirect way, still a couple of things...if not watching diet appropriately, then an extra caloric push may be warranted, however, this may be DIRECTLY ANTAGONISTIC to the very muscle you are trying to so desperately hold on to. (in fact, my theroies were reinforced by some research from the conference I just returned from, but this too will come sooner than the book in the form of an article for MAN-UP magazine later this summer).


Fat burners don't serve a true purpose other than quick fix? not even in cyclic fashion as you have given suggestions to others (granted they asked)?

Well, stims (the quoted "thermogenic") don't exactly always "burn fat" as purported either. In fact, one commonly-used item in MANY fat burners today has a terrible oral bioavailability, but its disclosure will have to be saved for another time. The points remain.


Cardio is only necessary if diet is not in check and/or it is brought on
by specific need (speed, sports, etc)

True dat, true dat as we like to say in my hood. ;) Endurance sports will dictate the need for sure.


Ab exercises? ... I feel leaner, I am leaner, and like I stated above, my diet is not exactly in check.

I feel a lot of things. It's perception that you shouldn't get carried away with. Instantaneous loss of fat within weeks without a clean diet isn't reality; sounds like you have placebo'd yourself IMO.


So, are you saying don't do abs period?

Oh good God, NO! I am saying do them, to strengthen your core, for other movements that will contribute to your physique (i.e. - squats, deads, etc...).



..or don't go crazy as Joe "Abzilla" Schmo and do them after each workout or 3 times per week?

Well, this depends! How many sets are we talking at each session?



I don't do deadlifts currently, but I am willing to start, back thickness is always an issue.

Not doing deads is a mistake. Body Composition should only excell if you aim for the 3 : 2 : 1 proportion in your lifts (squats : deads : bench), the protypical "big 3!"



However the clean and press is too much jerking on a frequently sore shoulder for me...

Olympic lifts are sure uncomfortable if you don't use them enough. I am empathetic to that and most people feel the clean and jerk and clean and press are either the same (which means form stinks) or are "too tough" (which usually means form stinks :) )! However, I am not a stickler on this as much as I am deads. If you were a client, you would not get many program setups that would avoid the bigger lifts ... its a hormonal rationale.




P.S. D, your book needs to come out soon. I need some true info here, as a trainer I can't try and toss out years in the industry hooplah out the window and say follow me. This seems surreal, some of the things leave me asking how. So, hopefully soon, or just do what writers do, drive off, to a cabin, finish the book, call a publisher, and BAM! Of course don't get all Johnny Depp, Secret Window crazy, anywho, need more info, but at a somewhat sub-scientific (not a word, least I don't think) level for now. Body Opus Reloaded was interesting though :D

Update: the book mentioned above has BEEN to the publisher. It is now being edited. don't worry, as it progresses through the stages, I will attempt to keep you as informed as possible, though I am going to have to work something out with DA because I obviously can't post outside links that sell product and well, my websites (all of which will be indirectly at least in direct conflict with that rule), but I am hoping to set a deal up with admin here for DA forum members - I have yet to discuss this with the new admin though, so as Chris and Andrea may have been positive about it, the new admin may not be as readily accepting of it...again...more to come. I am taking lists on the askdinoiii account for a waiting list, if you have yet to confirm that route you can...I am UNallowed via law to solicit to ANYone unless it is directly asked of me and dinoiii doesn't break the law - we will make all aware of this here. ;)



D_

[Okstate132]

It looks like I may have a new book to put on my shelf:D

[B-natural]

Well I am sending an email, from my school account, its gonna say waiting list, B-natural. So put me on whatever list. not sure what else you'll need as far as info, etc. but the email will be sent in a few min.s so dinoiii (name reference so you refer back to this thread) jus tell me if I need to add any other info. and when did this get sent out that there was a waiting list?

[dinoiii]

Well I am sending an email, from my school account, its gonna say waiting list, B-natural. So put me on whatever list. not sure what else you'll need as far as info, etc. but the email will be sent in a few min.s so dinoiii (name reference so you refer back to this thread) jus tell me if I need to add any other info. and when did this get sent out that there was a waiting list?

Unfortunately, law would have precluded that kind of thing sent by email too, so it was NEVER sent out...I may have indirectly asked some people in passing conversation IF they asked about my companies' progress FIRST. There are over 3,000 people on the waiting list from the forums and 6,000 of my own clients. should be a decent first print of the books without even trying really. I am pushing for a 25,000 copy first print based on the results so we will cross our fingers.



Thanks again for the support guys.

D_

[B-natural]

well, in that case, I "may" have sent an e-mail lol. Hopefully price is decent, but then again, based on the content/knowledge in the book, I will understand the price

[dinoiii]

well, in that case, I "may" have sent an e-mail lol. Hopefully price is decent, but then again, based on the content/knowledge in the book, I will understand the price

lol, I also understand and appreciate my audience's ability to pay for the book (demographic: 18-45 year old male predominant; not to suggest the material cannot be used for a female, but still...the industry is more male-dominated on the consumer end).

Still, I am unaware of what official charge will go on the book either (nor would I put that up because it sounds like an advertisement, not allowed) as it will likely be at some discretion of the publisher rather than my decision alone, but as I said, I have full intentions of offering a deal to DA forum members which is the only reason I would bring it up on here at this stage provided admin ok's it; I would NOT link to an outside source.


D_