Optimal Carb Intake

[B-natural]

Alrighty, there are plenty of studies out, and we all know that the "anabolic" properties of carbs and high carb diets are skewed in how they are put together. What was once the ultimate macro, is slowly becoming a third place health risk.

Now, how many want to make speculation on the amount of carbs needed to maintain healthy glycogen levels...

I like the looks of the TKD, but not for life, I like the CKD as of right now, because it's very militant, and the weekend is like the scene from Heavyweights just goin ape on "healthy" carbs, which they all taste good. I do not want this to be a TKD or CKD or any form of KD diet thread, unless it has long term use and safety...

I understand Dinoiii has been on some form of a KD diet for awhile now, and has maintained relatively low bodyfat. But I want to know how is strength and hypertrophy coming along? I feel to be a competitor in the bb-ing realms, maintaining a lower bf level is optimal, you maintain a drier/lean look, its a bit easier to gauge muscle growth/size because a massive layer of fat cells aren't swelling around them to make them look bigger.

Nuff of the wordage...what is optimal for carbs, digest it and define it here, do not give me a standard 40/40/20, thats bullsh** and we need to get dirty here.... Sure it works for some, but why to extremes when dieting as some tend to do, why eat 300 carbs off-season, only to go into a complete shift, why not maintain a lower level, to help keep the insulin receptors nice and sensitive like lil momma's boys if you will. If your body can adapt to the diet and simply gauge needed growth by an influx of calories and burn calories/fat when there is a reduction in calories, and with this minor deviation we don't have all of the extreme lethargy issues, at least in short term, as long term hypocaloric diets seem to cause this...

So whats optimal, how much is essential to maintain healthy glycogen levels, or is carb cycling an option for year round. Obviously a CKD needs more research to call it safe as a year round diet, so would sticking at or near your body weight, and adjusting the other macros around that, be suitable? I am up for some low/mod carb and then a high carb day, heck, I'd almost prefer it, so lets here some thoughts...

[dinoiii]

Yes, dinoiii has been on some form of a Keto (cyclic much of the time) for over 2 years - to prove a couple of simple points.

[1] Carbs are NOT essential. Fats have EFA considerations, Protein has EAA considerations...BUT there is NOTHING "essential" about a carbohydrate...NOTHING and I am not trying to sell you cheap carbohydrate filler in my powders either fortunately - so you can take that as you may.

[For those unfamiliar with acronyms...EFA = Essential Fatty Acids; EAA = Essential Amino Acids]

-and-

[2] I can remain just fine and perfectly HEALTHY with long-term ketogenic dieting. Now, it is keto variants so not always "keto" in the strictest sense and I do run the equivalent to a mass phase on the so-called keto variants as well to put on "size" though size in my position is not really my personal goal. Could you imagine patients/clients I see if I walked in at >250 pounds? Unnecessary for me as I am NOT currently competing (though I am getting antsy and you may see me back on stage next year sometime, but this is besides the point).



My diet is more militant than probably 99.9% of people on this board could follow (I shit you not). I came from a 349 pound high weight and would do ANYTHING not to return to that state of morbid obesity. So my metabolic variability runs on less than optimal (for those that may not have had a chance to read the first issue of AX's magazine with my "Great Anti-Bulk Experiment" article, then you probably have less an idea what this means...but I am just saying that people are really different and should NOT follow generalized plans).


The "standard" 40/40/20 is likely too low in fat actually for the "natural" bodybuilder as androgenic substrate is probably suffering with only 20% of your calories coming from fat, so testosterone will not be "optimal" for you at this state. Again, what that level is for "you" personally is really up for debate because everyone has individual hormonal differences as well.

I would probably say most fit better at 30-35% fat MINIMUM for this to occur "optimally." And try and use healthy sources for the most part: avocados, nuts, oils, and things like this...do NOT get crazy like so many have tendency to do when modulating macronutrient levels and wind up with a predominance of saturated and trans fatty acids.

That said, we can start getting a better picture of "optimal" scores of other macronutrients too as you would still need about 30-40% of your calories from protein when considering whether or not you are "cutting" or "bulking" working to modulate hypothalmic functioning - what you tend to see this referenced as is "Diet Induced Thermogenesis" -or the more archaic term- "Thermic Effect of Food."

Let's say we are at the high-end for both the above macronutrients which probably puts most in a more ready "fat-burning" zone:

35% Fat - main purpose: androgenic substrate for the natural trainee; EFAs
40% Protein - main purpose: hypothalamic functioning; EAAs

This leaves us at about 25% of an intake from carbs on a fat-burning end.

----------------

To put weight on, we'll go the opposite end:

30% Fat
30% Protein

and

40% Carbs

But be VERY wary of insulin resistance as over 75% of the U.S. population doesn't tend to process carbs that neatly, so if you consider yourself average it is probably more or less like

35% Fat
35% Protein
30% Carbs

And as such meal timing probably resembles carbs in the morning and fats at night for a number of reasons that are too many in number for my typing here.



D_

[B-natural]

Wow, well I put in a shameless name pimp (as I or others have dubbed it) and I got the answer I was looking for....

So with either a 30/30/40 or 35/35/30 (P/F/C) my muscle glycogen should remain at optimal levels, correct?

Is carb cycling of any difference, is there any offerings that for those seeking to build muscle or "bulk" that a cyclic diet is better than a "standard" diet (by standard I mean, the calories and macro content are equal throughout the week)?

[bmoremade26]

Yes, dinoiii has been on some form of a Keto (cyclic much of the time) for over 2 years - to prove a couple of simple points.

[1] Carbs are NOT essential. Fats have EFA considerations, Protein has EAA considerations...BUT there is NOTHING "essential" about a carbohydrate...NOTHING and I am not trying to sell you cheap carbohydrate filler in my powders either fortunately - so you can take that as you may.

[For those unfamiliar with acronyms...EFA = Essential Fatty Acids; EAA = Essential Amino Acids]

-and-

[2] I can remain just fine and perfectly HEALTHY with long-term ketogenic dieting. Now, it is keto variants so not always "keto" in the strictest sense and I do run the equivalent to a mass phase on the so-called keto variants as well to put on "size" though size in my position is not really my personal goal. Could you imagine patients/clients I see if I walked in at >250 pounds? Unnecessary for me as I am NOT currently competing (though I am getting antsy and you may see me back on stage next year sometime, but this is besides the point).



My diet is more militant than probably 99.9% of people on this board could follow (I shit you not). I came from a 349 pound high weight and would do ANYTHING not to return to that state of morbid obesity. So my metabolic variability runs on less than optimal (for those that may not have had a chance to read the first issue of AX's magazine with my "Great Anti-Bulk Experiment" article, then you probably have less an idea what this means...but I am just saying that people are really different and should NOT follow generalized plans).


The "standard" 40/40/20 is likely too low in fat actually for the "natural" bodybuilder as androgenic substrate is probably suffering with only 20% of your calories coming from fat, so testosterone will not be "optimal" for you at this state. Again, what that level is for "you" personally is really up for debate because everyone has individual hormonal differences as well.

I would probably say most fit better at 30-35% fat MINIMUM for this to occur "optimally." And try and use healthy sources for the most part: avocados, nuts, oils, and things like this...do NOT get crazy like so many have tendency to do when modulating macronutrient levels and wind up with a predominance of saturated and trans fatty acids.

That said, we can start getting a better picture of "optimal" scores of other macronutrients too as you would still need about 30-40% of your calories from protein when considering whether or not you are "cutting" or "bulking" working to modulate hypothalmic functioning - what you tend to see this referenced as is "Diet Induced Thermogenesis" -or the more archaic term- "Thermic Effect of Food."

Let's say we are at the high-end for both the above macronutrients which probably puts most in a more ready "fat-burning" zone:

35% Fat - main purpose: androgenic substrate for the natural trainee; EFAs
40% Protein - main purpose: hypothalamic functioning; EAAs

This leaves us at about 25% of an intake from carbs on a fat-burning end.

----------------

To put weight on, we'll go the opposite end:

30% Fat
30% Protein

and

40% Carbs

But be VERY wary of insulin resistance as over 75% of the U.S. population doesn't tend to process carbs that neatly, so if you consider yourself average it is probably more or less like

35% Fat
35% Protein
30% Carbs

And as such meal timing probably resembles carbs in the morning and fats at night for a number of reasons that are too many in number for my typing here.



D_


hey dinoii didnt know u were 349 lbs nice job man i was 400 lbs myself at one time and i totally understand how u never want to go back

[Blackice]

hey dinoii didnt know u were 349 lbs nice job man i was 400 lbs myself at one time and i totally understand how u never want to go back

Smokes, is that you in your picture?

[Blackice]

Yeah, n I also like to add, that when I dont add carbs or just cut out and eat mostly protien, that my weight drops and is nearly impossible to add weight.
I know the answer why b/c protien is the hardest food to digest making your metabolism work the hardest, causing wieght loss(abs diet book)

[bmoremade26]

yeah thats me :D

[Blackice]

yeah thats me :D
Ha, you have a waist! no congrates. wouldnt mind seeing some before n after photos!

[dinoiii]

Wow, well I put in a shameless name pimp (as I or others have dubbed it) and I got the answer I was looking for....

So with either a 30/30/40 or 35/35/30 (P/F/C) my muscle glycogen should remain at optimal levels, correct?

Is carb cycling of any difference, is there any offerings that for those seeking to build muscle or "bulk" that a cyclic diet is better than a "standard" diet (by standard I mean, the calories and macro content are equal throughout the week)?

Yes to the first part.

The difference with carb-cycling is that you can actually double your normal capacity to store carbs (glycogen) in muscle tissue when you carb-up (if done appropriately of course). This kind of diet is true recomp (in other words - fat loss + muscle gain almost simulataneously). Most others don't really define "recomp" diets.



hey dinoii didnt know u were 349 lbs nice job man i was 400 lbs myself at one time and i totally understand how u never want to go back

Yes sir. I was 349 (max weight that I weighed myself in at)...and in 2 years time went down to an all-time low of 141 lbs. That said, I kind of looked like an emaciated skeleton and and it certainly was NOT what I had "signed up for." So - I began my quest to essentially solve body composition and 16 years later, having competed a few times prior to medical school...I actually earn my living helping others do pretty much the same thing. [Check out a thread in the Off Topic from a long-while back entitled "Getting Inside the Mind of Dinoiii" for those really interested in my history]



D_

[B-natural]

so can one constantly be recomping, I think with the militant-ness of these diets there is a way to "cheat" if you will and still stay on course by cheating I mean havin some sugars and some higher carb items on the high carb days are a little more guilt free, but again it depends on the extent of cheating, just the tip is still cheating :P....
i.e. not a fat kid in a candy store...

but I mean, with your diet D, you have been on a keto type for awhile, would a carb cyclic diet, in which you do a 3day lo-carb and 1day of high carb rotation work well and have a better effect on body comp vs. say a standard diet like the 35/35/30 we previously discussed...

Just lookin to stay leaner each yr, not to where I am at 5-6% yr round as then I would assume I would never truly enjoy food, but would be more of a psychopath...

so which is "better" cyclic in my defined sense, or a standard diet as previously defined, both would be hypercaloric, or recomp in the realms of gaining size...

[B-natural]

so can one constantly be recomping, I think with the militant-ness of these diets there is a way to "cheat" if you will and still stay on course by cheating I mean havin some sugars and some higher carb items on the high carb days are a little more guilt free, but again it depends on the extent of cheating, just the tip is still cheating :P....
i.e. not a fat kid in a candy store...

but I mean, with your diet D, you have been on a keto type for awhile, would a carb cyclic diet, in which you do a 3day lo-carb and 1day of high carb rotation work well and have a better effect on body comp vs. say a standard diet like the 35/35/30 we previously discussed...

Just lookin to stay leaner each yr, not to where I am at 5-6% yr round as then I would assume I would never truly enjoy food, but would be more of a psychopath...

so which is "better" cyclic in my defined sense, or a standard diet as previously defined, both would be hypercaloric, or recomp in the realms of gaining size...


Bump for this one Dinoiii

[Tick]

Bump for this one Dinoiii
This is very true. I am currently study the 3-day swing from low to high carb. days. There is alot of ref. out there to prove the success of this. Study -ACE for PT. we stress this when goning over people's lifestyles and diets. A lot of truth to this.