PCT Advices???

[gigunda]

Hey Smart People,

I'm looking for some advices on my PCT. Wrapping up a six week run of Havoc/Tren. Details are as follows:

My stats:
6'2", 300lbs, 20%, 37 years old.

What I took:
-Havoc (1st week) 10mg/day, (2nd-6th) 20mg/day
-Trenadrol (1st week) 30mg/day, (2nd-6th) 60mg/day

Supporting cast:
-Orange Triad - 6 caps/day
-Vitamin C - 8g/day
-Testabolan - 4 caps/day
-NOW Hawthorn Berry - 3.3 g/day
-PAL Incarnate - 6-9 caps/day
-Taurine - 6-9g/workout as needed
-Flax Seed Oil - 5-10g/day
-Cycle Support - 2 scoops/day (1st 2 weeks only...

Prior experience:
-none with ph/ps, some with AAS (sust/test)

Positive sides:
-gained about 15 lbs (mostly solid, muscles are noticeably bigger/fuller, shirts don't fit, etc)
-strength improved considerably (was benching 275/5 sets/4-8 reps, now benching 315/5 sets/4-10 reps; was military pressing 185/4 sets/4-6 reps, now pressing 225/5 sets/4-8 reps)

Negative sides:
-super oily skin, had some minor breakouts
-back pumps started in week 3, horrible when I didn't take 6-8g Taurine, very manageable when I did
-libido - had a minor scare at the end of week one with a weak erection and dwelling on it made it worse (I added testabolan then and ordered Aspire 36 as well, no further problems)

Other things:
- Hunger was very strong
- Trouble getting to sleep if I took near bedtime
- Lots of joint cracking and popping, but no pain (lots of Cissus)
- No blood pressure issues
- My diet started clean, but dirtied up about halfway through, interesting thing was, for all the crap I ate, I stayed surprisingly lean (for me)
- I could have done better on this cycle. I sprained my ankle halfway through and stopped doing legs, but I kept going strong on upper body

Now is where I could use your advices... my PCT. I have LOTS of products, but I was considering the following:

4 weeks
NOW SAMe - 400mg/day
Liv.52 - 4 caps/day
Hawthorn Berry - 3.3 g/day
Testabolan - 4 caps/day
Activate Xtreme - 4-6 caps/day
Hyperdrol X2 - 4 caps/day
STARTING WEEK 3
Reduce XT - 6 caps/day week 3, 4 caps/day week 4, 3 caps/day week 5

Questions:
- Am I missing anything important?
- Is it cool to take 2 test boosters (Testabolan and Activate Xtreme) concurrently?
- Is HyperdrolX2 a decent AI? (I think dinoiii recommends 6 bromo) I also have Novedex XT if anyone recommends that
- I'm large, would you change any of the dosages due to my size?
- Am I ramping the cortisol control properly?

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to provide as much relevant info as possible. Thanks in advance for your ADVICES!

Gigunda

[gigunda]

Hey Gang,

If anyone has any feedback (positive or negative) I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

Gigunda

[usf97j4x4]

Hey Gang,

If anyone has any feedback (positive or negative) I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

Gigunda

I would drop the Hawthorne Berry and the Testabolin. Testabolin is primarily an on cycle test booster. You dont need 2 test boosters so just use the Activate. Everything else looks good. I cant help you on dosages but I can tell you Hyperdrol X2 is great for PCT.

[ugab3737]

I prefer Torem(is it necessary for all cycles, NO, but IMHO, its better for most).

Id go with the inverse protocol and here's how Id do it with hyp instead of ATD.
Torem: 120(1st 4 days)/ 60(day5-13)/60/30
Hyperdrol2: 2/3/4/5/3/off
Activate Xtreme: 5/5/4/4
Reduce dosages look fine, but Id go with Retain2 at 5/4/3/2/2/1 starting the first week of PCT. I know most like to wait until week 2 or 3, but Ive tried it both ways and I like to start it on day 1.

Without Torem, Id keep all the others the same, but change hyperdrol2 to 6/5/4/3/2/2.

I know some will disagree, but for me, the above layout works best.

PS: Try Drive sometime in PCT. A member from another forum was running a hormonal cycle including DBOL and his test levels actually were higher in PCT. Normally, Id think it was bs, but he's a very reputable member who has previously been a rep(never for us though). If you'd like the link, let me know and Ill pm it to ya.

[dinoiii]

My stats:
6'2", 300lbs, 20%, 37 years old.

What I took:
-Havoc (1st week) 10mg/day, (2nd-6th) 20mg/day
-Trenadrol (1st week) 30mg/day, (2nd-6th) 60mg/day

At your body mass; you may very well see inconsequential effects at these doses. While I cannot "recommend" a dose; let's just say...I have a slight hunch.


Supporting cast:
-Orange Triad - 6 caps/day
-Vitamin C - 8g/day
-Testabolan - 4 caps/day
-NOW Hawthorn Berry - 3.3 g/day
-PAL Incarnate - 6-9 caps/day
-Taurine - 6-9g/workout as needed
-Flax Seed Oil - 5-10g/day
-Cycle Support - 2 scoops/day (1st 2 weeks only...

Personally don't care for the OT (echinacea should NOT be dosed daily and could prove hepatotoxic with C17-alkylated PH/PS/DeS acutely) and Flax seed (estrogenic).

If using Cycle Support, contact Crowler about getting their RYR-free version of the product.

You really do NOT need 8 grams of Vitamin C as going beyond 500mg in each dose can prove PRO-oxidative rather than anti-oxidative in nature.

Hawthorn: don't forget to pre-load about 2 weeks before cycle IF you are to see benefits from this agent at all.






My responses to your PCT:

4 weeks
NOW SAMe - 400mg/day

Weeks 1-2: 600mg
Weeks 3-4: 400mg

Liv.52 - 4 caps/day

Despite its "recognition" this is an unncessary herbal.


Hawthorn Berry - 3.3 g/day

OK, as above.


Testabolan - 4 caps/day

Just ecdy, trib, Humaofort style product that looks exotic in labeling. I am unsure who started the "on-cycle" dosing but that really doesn't hold merit and is completely against basics of endocrinology - save yourself some money...PCT is fine to use/I don't see a point on cycle despite what appear IMO to remain placebo report until proven otherwise - i.e. - a blood test that would contradict it.

Activate Xtreme - 4-6 caps/day

Pick ONE test-booster - there is NO need for this to be a million dollar cycle/PCT. This or the testabolan, but no real need for both.

Hyperdrol X2 - 4 caps/day

OK, at your body mass, you may benefit from dosing this at 6 caps.

STARTING WEEK 3
Reduce XT - 6 caps/day week 3, 4 caps/day week 4, 3 caps/day week 5

May be inconsequential, but fine and I like where you start it.


Questions:
- Am I missing anything important?

Is this a trick question....ok....

More money in your wallet???


- Is it cool to take 2 test boosters (Testabolan and Activate Xtreme) concurrently?

Its "fine" but unnecessary.


- Is HyperdrolX2 a decent AI? (I think dinoiii recommends 6 bromo) I also have Novedex XT if anyone recommends that

Yes, dinoiii is ok with 6-Bromo.

- I'm large, would you change any of the dosages due to my size?

As above.


- Am I ramping the cortisol control properly?

I don't think there is really a lot of support to suggest a "ramp" needed. Study dosing would imply a MINIMUM of 200mg of any of the DHEA derivatives anyway (AET is likely pointless orally even at 200mg)

Recall:

7-oxo/7-keto DHEA --> 7-OH DHEA --> AET

Keep the first couple (the second I believe to be in Reduce XT) at a MINIMUM of 200mg...you may actually need 300mg (6 caps) or higher due to body size.


And btw...A long post provides so much more of an opportunity to provide better advice - don't think you really need to apologize.

D_

[mw1111]

What the Heck can u add to all that?:D

Did'nt realize that about the Orange Triad.

[gigunda]

Hey Gang,

Thanks for the feedback, it is truly appreciated.

By the way, how long after you stop taking oral ph/ps can you still get back pumps? I was wondering how long I need to keep taking taurine after I stop the havoc/tren.

Thanks again,
Gigunda

[dinoiii]

By the way, how long after you stop taking oral ph/ps can you still get back pumps? I was wondering how long I need to keep taking taurine after I stop the havoc/tren.

Probably instantaneously.

Unsure you have seen my model for the prototypical "back pumps" in the science section of this forum, but if you are interested in the technical stuff, it is buried in a few pages deep the taurine and back pumps thread within that section.


D_

[Addicted2Iron]

Personally don't care for the OT (echinacea should NOT be dosed daily and could prove hepatotoxic with C17-alkylated PH/PS/DeS acutely) and Flax seed (estrogenic).

D_

hey D can you elaborate more on this comment please? i am uneducated in these areas (along with may others).

[dinoiii]

hey D can you elaborate more on this comment please? i am uneducated in these areas (along with may others).

Unsure if you want me to elaborate on the echinacea or the flax, but I have spoken on the flax a lot in the past and its pro-estrogenic effects that may not be the best choice for many - especially those anticipating a "dry" cycle though I hate the nomenclature (if it is not searchable, let me know and I'll find some links).

I will focus here on echinacea. Three kinds of Echinacea exist: Echinacea angustifolia, Echinacea pallida, and Echinacea purpurea (most companies don't normally list which species they use). The Germans recommend using the above-ground parts of E purpurea (not the roots) or the roots of E angustifolia.

Since hepatotoxic effects may be associated with persistent use, it should not be taken with other known hepatotoxic drugs (eg, anabolic steroids, amiodarone, methotrexate, or ketoconazole). However, the magnitude of this hepatoxicity has been questioned since Echinacea lacks the 1, 2 unsaturated necrine ring system associated with hepatoxicity of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. Though I will focus on what I have said many times today on the forums - herbs are a tricky subset..."nature's proprietary blend" - literally 100s of components in many of these herbs and echinacea is a cytochrome P450 3A4 inhibitior (what this means is ... if it is taken with anything with a steroidal nucleus, it will essentially increase the amount of steroid in the system --> while you are saying sweet...cool deal, I can get a lot more for my money...unfortunately...side effects also come with this "added effect.") If we are talking about something that is a methylated PH (C17-alkylated), we can be talking a significant interaction and it should be cautioned against the use of this kind of thing (at least with suggestive dosing) or it is otherwise irresponsible.

Please let me know if I have elaborated enough.


D_

[GotTest]

This is the thread Doc...

"BACK PUMPS" are the kidneys until proven otherwise, I am fine to suggest this kidney aggitation of sort being secondary to an increased blood volume secondary to increased Hematocrit and ion depostion. You might ask well, how the hell does this work dinoiii if you think its blood volume and the like...well a great % of your cardiac output need be filtered by the kidneys and there are a slew of smaller vessels within the kidney that are very pertinent (but I will save the anatomy lesson in this one).

Taurine in and of itself aids this scenario by potentiating increases in cell volume via effects in the ion-flux and nutrient gated transport.

BUT HOLD THE PHONE, THAT'S NOT ALL!!!

90% of bb's also have a simple deficiency of taurine to begin with. You may say, so what you're telling me is that correction of the deficiency is going to alleviate my symptoms, right?

NOT EXACTLY!

What I will say is that deficiency of taurine contributes to elevated blood pressure in people with hypertension. And what you get when you go on a PH/PS/AAS cycle is the potential for increased blood pressure. Limited research has found that supplementation with taurine lowers blood pressure in animals and in people. This is hypothesized through a reduction in the hormone epinephrine. Because, yup - you guessed it...increased blood through the tiny blood vessels of the kidney even produces issue with the organ tissue itself.

So, I ingest a couple caps of taurine and I am fine. Well - in a placebo-oriented world ... maybe, but a couple caps has NOT corrected the deficiency I describe above.

Most people don't dose taurine appropriately to begin with, taurine in the average 70kg individual (or 154 pounds for the "metrically"-deficient Americans reading along) should be dosed at 6 GRAMS to see true efficacy. For the average 200 pound bb, this is increased to about 7 GRAMS, higher weight...likely as high as 8 or 9 to accomplish satisfaction of volume of distribution differences.


--------------------




So - let's summarize the dinoiii-model of taurine "Back-Pump" alleviation shall we (in a cliff-notes version):

Pathway #1: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Taurine ingestion --> Ion Flux, Nutrient-Gated Transport (Volume Correction Factor)

Pathway #2: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Inc BP --> Taurine ingestion --> Dec Epinephrine --> Dec BP


End Result of Both = Contribution to Dec "Back Pumps" (aka - kidney pains).
__________________

[gigunda]

Probably instantaneously.

Unsure you have seen my model for the prototypical "back pumps" in the science section of this forum, but if you are interested in the technical stuff, it is buried in a few pages deep the taurine and back pumps thread within that section.


D_

I did read that... however, I must admit that my understanding of it (while improving) is relatively weak. I figured that if you had increased blood volume that it would take a few days (or longer) to get back to normal.

My last day taking Havoc/Tren was Wednesday, and Friday and Saturday nights I woke up with some serious lower back pain, "back pump" style. No problems since then, but it was rather uncomfortable.

Anyway, thanks again for all of your help!!!

Gigunda

[Addicted2Iron]

sorry for hijacking the thread guys