Methyls and Liver Chalk Talk

[dinoiii]

I would love a quality discussion on the concurrent administration of liver "protectants" while using a methylated prohormone.

Personally, I think it DEFEATS the purpose. What I mean is in restoration of proper glutathione levels, you may be sabatoging gains. The methylation is attempting to allow molecular bypass of the liver. Unfortunately, you will have to accept some free radical formation or potentially risk destruction of the molecule with too high glutathione levels and perhaps not eliminate gains BUT limit them.



Another conundrum, but not the primary purpose of the post:
It is interesting to note that people do not hesitate to take creatine while on methylated prohormones. The same free radical production through liver toxicity through glutathione depletion exists for the kidneys producing renal papillary necrosis and compromising renal clearance of creatinine. Interestingly enough, hesitation for the liver is there - although, the kidney ... ahhh not so much.

Now, I am not saying this WILL happen, I am saying it MAY and by that, what I am more surprised with is if your scare for liver toxicity is warranted, would not similar protection for the kidney be warranted.

[Hi Dolla' Balla']

hey...i was kind of wondering the same thing before i started taking the M1T & M4ADExtreme...it makes sense what you are saying and i would love to hear what the guys here at Discount Anabolics have to say about this...just for informational purposes of corse....i love the M1T & M4ADExtreme...so i don't think that i will stop taking them...just want to make sure that i take care of my body as best i can while on this shit but at the same time make some serious gains....thanks

[Haus]

if this were the case, why are some compaines putting milk thistle in the products?

[max von]

Haus

i would like to try the M1T but am still worried about the side affect and the harm to liver. Lot people say it is no more harmful that drinking beer on your liver but not quite sure yet. Plus i worry about estrogen conversion as i am pretty lean but would love to put on size but i hear lots of people lose there size when they go off but i know time is winding down to try it. any advice. that Milk thistle is a good point

max von

[dinoiii]

Haus

I want to offer you a very logical example of why your argument is flawed. GO to your drawer where you keep your supplements and pick up your multi-vitamin. Look at its inredients...Do you not see listed - Calcium, Magnesium, and Zinc? Now, understanding the biochemistry, you will recall that the receptor sites are very similar and Calcium acts like the "bully" in this case potentially displacing the latter two. Supplement companies that do not understand this opt to put this together in attempts to increase compliance instead of ingesting pills multiple times throughout the day. It also makes the consumer think they are getting more. Now, don't you think they would have benfited more from leaving these components out. It is after all, like you are not taking them anyway. Many people blasted ZMA supplements touting they didnt work yet ingested them with calcium (whether in a protein powder, etc...) certainly making them ineffective, yet alone, they DO increase testosterone levels in those deficient. Those deficient certainly may be ingesting enough, but again with Calcium at the same time, remain deficient.

This is just one example and the most significant that impacts 90+% of bodybuilders and general public alike.

My reference namely is in regard to NAC and not milk thistle in the first place as well, b/c it is suspect of whether or not studies etc... were flawed showing positive results of milk thistle supplements (esp. w/o active component listed and/or extracted properly) in the first place.

I challenge a showing of whether milk thistle is in fact benefiting you in the first place. This is not to knock on any particular company that includes it, but lets look at the research summary:

Findings
Mechanisms of Action

Evidence exists that milk thistle may be hepatoprotective through a number of mechanisms: antioxidant activity, toxin blockade at the membrane level, enhanced protein synthesis, antifibriotic activity, and possible anti-inflammatory or immunomodulating effects.

Preparations of Milk Thistle

The largest producer of milk thistle is Madaus (Germany), which makes an extract of concentrated silymarin. However, numerous other extracts exist, and more information is needed on comparability of formulations, standardization, and bioavailability for studies of mechanisms of action and clinical trials.

Benefit of Milk Thistle for Liver Disease

Sixteen prospective trials were identified. Fourteen were randomized, blinded, placebo-controlled studies of milk thistle's effectiveness in a variety of liver diseases. In one additional placebo-controlled trial, blinding or randomization was not clear, and one placebo-controlled study was a cohort study with a placebo comparison group.

Seventeen additional trials used nonplacebo controls; two other trials studied milk thistle as prophylaxis in patients with no known liver disease who were starting potentially hepatotoxic drugs. The identified studies addressed alcohol-related liver disease, toxin-induced liver disease, and viral liver disease. No studies were found that evaluated milk thistle for cholestatic liver disease or primary hepatic malignancy (hepatocellular carcinoma, cholangiocarcinoma).

There were problems in assessing the evidence because of incomplete information about multiple methodologic issues, including etiology and severity of liver disease, study design, subject characteristics, and potential confounders. It is difficult to say if the lack of information reflects poor scientific quality of study methods or poor reporting quality or both.

Detailed data evaluation and syntheses were limited to the 16 placebo-controlled studies. Distribution of durations of therapy across trials was wide (7 days to 2 years), inconsistent, and sometimes not given. Eleven studies used Legalon®, and eight of those used the same dose. Outcome measures varied among studies, as did duration of therapy and the followup for which outcome measures were reported.

Among six studies of milk thistle and chronic alcoholic liver disease, four reported significant improvement in at least one measurement of liver function (i.e., aminotransferases, albumin, and/or malondialdehyde) or histologic findings with milk thistle compared with placebo, but also reported no difference between groups for other outcome measures.

Available data were insufficient to sort six studies into specific etiologic categories; these were grouped as chronic liver disease of mixed etiologies. In three of the six studies that reported multiple outcome measures, at least one outcome measure improved significantly with milk thistle compared with placebo, but there were no differences between milk thistle and placebo for one or more of the other outcome measures in each study. Two studies indicated a possible survival benefit.

Three placebo-controlled studies evaluated milk thistle for viral hepatitis. The one acute viral hepatitis study reported latest outcome measures at 28 days and showed significant improvement in aspartate aminotransferase and bilirubin. The two studies of chronic viral hepatitis differed markedly in duration of therapy (7 days and 1 year). The shorter study showed improvement in aminotransferases for milk thistle compared with placebo but not other laboratory measures. In the longer study, milk thistle was associated with a nonsignificant trend toward histologic improvement, the only outcome measure reported.

Two trials included patients with alcoholic or nonalcoholic cirrhosis. The milk thistle arms showed a trend toward improved survival in one trial and significantly improved survival for subgroups with alcoholic cirrhosis or Child's Group A severity. The second study reported no significant improvement in laboratory measures and survival for other clinical subgroups, but no data were given.

Two trials specifically studied patients with alcoholic cirrhosis. Duration of therapy was unclear in the first, which reported no improvement in laboratory measures of liver function, hepatomegaly, jaundice, ascites, or survival. However, there were nonsignificant trends favoring milk thistle in incidence of encephalopathy and gastrointestinal bleeding and in survival for subjects with concomitant hepatitis C. The second study, after treatment for 30 days, reported significant improvements in aminotransferases but not bilirubin for milk thistle compared with placebo.

Three trials evaluated milk thistle in the setting of hepatotoxic drugs: one for therapeutic use and two for prophylaxis with milk thistle. Results were mixed among the three trials.

Exploratory meta-analyses generally showed positive but small and nonsignificant effect sizes and a sprinkling of significant positive effects.

No studies were identified regarding milk thistle and cholestatic liver disease or primary hepatic malignancy.

Available evidence does not establish whether effectiveness of milk thistle varies across preparations. One Phase II trial suggested that effectiveness may vary with dose of milk thistle.

Adverse Effects

Adverse effects associated with oral ingestion of milk thistle include:

Gastrointestinal problems (e.g., nausea, diarrhea, dyspepsia, flatulence, abdominal bloating, abdominal fullness or pain, anorexia, and changes in bowel habits).

Headache.

Skin reactions (pruritus, rash, urticaria, and eczema).

Neuropsychological events (e.g., asthenia, malaise, and insomnia).

Arthralgia. HMMMM, is it M1T or CONCURRENT PROTECTANTS!

Rhinoconjunctivitis.

Impotence. WOW, IS THIS EVER WORTH IT!

Anaphylaxis.


However, causality is rarely addressed in available reports. For randomized trials reporting adverse effects, incidence was approximately equal in milk thistle and control groups.

Conclusions

Clinical efficacy of milk thistle is not clearly established. Interpretation of the evidence is hampered by poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications. Problems in study design include heterogeneity in etiology and extent of liver disease, small sample sizes, and variation in formulation, dosing, and duration of milk thistle therapy. Possible benefit has been shown most frequently, but not consistently, for improvement in aminotransferases and liver function tests are overwhelmingly the most common outcome measure studied. Survival and other clinical outcome measures have been studied least often, with both positive and negative findings. Available evidence is not sufficient to suggest whether milk thistle may be more effective for some liver diseases than others or if effectiveness might be related to duration of therapy or chronicity and severity of liver disease. Regarding adverse effects, little evidence is available regarding causality, but available evidence does suggest that milk thistle is associated with few, and generally minor, adverse effects.

Despite substantial in vitro and animal research, the mechanism of action of milk thistle is not fully defined and may be multifactorial. A systematic review of this evidence to clarify what is known and identify gaps in knowledge would be important to guide design of future studies of the mechanisms of milk thistle and clinical trials.





Personally, I may be inclined to go with products that do not include the protectants. Your liver maintains positive functioning with up to only 20% being in tact in the first place AND regenerates provided proper PCT.

And just as there are companies that have chosen to include them, there are many that have not. Those that have came into view later and I can't help but feel it was an attempt at outdoing the competitor.

[SNS8778]

Dinoii makes some very good points and I am not disagreeing with him at all.

Here's my take though:
- Okay, let's say that taking liver protectants with a cycle diminishes gains somewhat, but it does have a positive influence on the liver, at some point with age most of our bodybuilding gains will go away. We need our liver for the rest of our life.
- Myself, I have tried cycles with liver protectants and without, and I did not personally feel like it had any negative impact whatsoever on my cycle.
- Let me make a point that I am not biased on this at all because we do even make a liver protectant supplement.
- Dinoii covered the scientific aspect of this question well; I am only offering insight from myself and consumer feedback that we hear.
- Referencing what someone brought up about people not hesitating to take Creatine with a Methyl, I would not do it and would never recommend anyone to take Creatine at the same time as a methyl. I like to do my stacks as to where I will be on our Creatine E2 Matrix during my off cycles.
-

[dinoiii]

Granted

I like this discussion...

The only thing I do contest is why you think you for lack of better ways to word it, would NOT have your liver the rest of your life. Perhaps, I am just playing devil's advocate.

I guess what I mean is that the liver, believe it or not, can take quite the beating...it still functions at 100% with only remnant of 20% hepatocytes fully functioning AND REGENERATES RAPIDLY. Think of the alcoholic with a cirrhotic liver....they live for years and years before true cirrhosis takes place because of this regenerative potential.

Let me ask...too why we believe we are going to do so much greater benefit for the liver through free radical reduction? I think you could get better protectant effects from good ole alpha lipoic acid (racemic is fine for this action) + sodium glucoronate than Milk Thistle and NAC. Of course, this is due to the mechanism of action of proposed destruction by methylated PH's. If we were talking about something like acetaminophen, NAC would be the best option.

Let's offer a hypothetical...
User A: Methylated PH + liver protectant
User B: Methylated PH w/o protectant

User A and B both gain 10 pounds on a 2-week cycle. Due to different body chemistries, it could have been highly likely that User A could have seen 15 pounds LBM increase.

2nd Hypothetical:
Perhaps closer to home
User C: Methylated PH w/ liver protectant gains 10 pounds during a
cycle and waits 4 weeks or 8 weeks for a second cycle, however, this time does NOT use a protectant. During his non-protected cycle, he gains 10 pounds. Well, of course this looks like he has done equally well on both. Let's say however, during his first cycle he should have

A) either gotten much better results (refer to first hypothetical)...it was his first cycle after all
-or-
B) loses his gains quicker, which I am proposing may be just what happens....due to higher levels of glutathione not allowing continual methylated action even after stopping the prohormone.

the conundrum that develops here is you will NEVER be able to go back and test the same individual under the same homeostatic conditions EVER again in his lifetime.



KEY POINTS:
(1) Your liver takes a beating daily...liver "protectants" or not, you are probably NOT giving it's regenerative potential enough credit.

(2) The use of a protectant while on a PH may not visibly alter results, however, the internal picture is always more complicated.

(3) Even though we will likely lose our bodybuilding gains (hell, we lose up to 35% strength from one day's absence from the gym) one day...I hope to fend off the time when the results go away. "Stay strong or die trying." (Uhhhh, I know terrible joke!)

[dinoiii]

max von - read post on PCT and cycle length about estrogenic conversions....consider adequate TAPERS as MANDATORY for endocrine protection.

[SNS8778]

I'm going to hit on dinoii's points randomly here:
- I agree that the liver can take quite a beating. Understand on this from my side, I have to somewhat side with what is related to industry standard here so as not to take a beating all across the internet from people saying that 'ahh... he said so and so'.
- Alpha lipoic acid is an excellent liver protectant, no argument here; I suggest it to alot of people when they e-mail me. NAC has it's up sides as well. I personally like Milk Thistle also. If you took my reply as to mean that I was specifically referring to just Milk Thistle when I said liver protectants, that was not the case. I was more talking about in general. I personally use Milk Thistle, ALA, and in some cases NAC as well in my personal stack.
- As for the hypotheticals, scenario 1 where oen gains 10 lbs. and could it have been 15 with no protection, I did not notice that level of a difference so I can only speak from personal results there. Hypothetical 2, I understand where you are coming from, and like you said, since you cannot test the same individual again under the same conditions, neither you nor I do not know who's opinion is correct. I actually do think that using a protectant may somewhat inhibit gains on a cycle, but not to a great degree. Understand from my side of the industry, I have to be careful what I say in regards to this issue and I always like to err on the side of caution.

Basically, I think that we are both right in our own degrees here. There is a valid side to each side of this, basically a rewards vs. risks scenario. I do not think that either one of us is necesarily right or wrong here, it is just from different vantage points.

Moral of the story is that people have to do what they are comfortable with. Some individuals use Methyl's like there is no tomorrrow, some people are more afraid of them.

Dinoii, I hope I responded to every aspect you wanted me to; I'm trying to do about 10 different things at once right now, so I hope I did not miss anything.

[dinoiii]

That was a great response and I too feel your burden as a medical resident about doing 10 things at once. I am actually writing a paper for some medical politics thing which shares 2 viewpoints being correct as well. I was trying to be as liberal as possible with the whole "maybe I am just playing devil's advocate" thing, but yeah personally I do think gains could be sabatoged.

I think a minimum amount of lipoic acid is almost good year round btw. I think it is 100mg, you start seeing antioxidant potential.

Hehe...I do not use methyl's like there's no tomorrow, and I think my tapering suggesting in the other post is actually erring on greater caution than liver protectants, but also to provide Estrogen BONK post cycle. But yeah you are in a position to say "eat band aids" really b/c I am sure there are some legal ramifications that could come of this.

Maybe my freedom of speech on this side of the fence offers me more leeway :lol:

I was never implying dichotomy though - the entire survey's intention was to see if people thought there was potential even if a tiny bit of hampering with protectants to sabotage gains.

Perhaps a whole bunch of gray area: I think maybe this may be more accurate.
(1) Provided you do NOT use methylated PH's for > amounts of time than you are off of them, you are in a position where you liver can take greater stress.
(2) If you want to use them b/c you feel the products will rip your liver to shreds and would not use them otherwise, then absolutely --> 10 pounds is better than no pounds even if it could have been 15.
(3) think twice if it is your first cycle at all with methylated PH's, maybe this is one of the truest times, you could get away with going without the protectants and beyond this as you may go to the well more often, perhaps this is the time a protectant should be used.

--> I know, I know...unfortunately, we will never have the answers and the damn ban screws us b/c of course, it is not as if it would ever be truly studied. Oh well I guess --- Thanks Steve for the continual thoughts...I am gonna miss 'em (PH's) though I tell ya.

[SNS8778]

Dinoii:

I think you put it really well in the closing part of your last post.

I'm going to miss the ph's as well.

[max von]

dinoiii

i understand what you are saying about the estergoen and pcts the problem is that there are so many different opnions out there its hard to guage them but the info you and steve gave helps alot

max von

[wedgylx]

I dont know about you but I'll sacrifice 5lbs for some peace of mind.

[dinoiii]

Piece of mind?

I am not sure I would be rest assured with the aforementioned products (MT and NAC) being all that beneficial. They looked decent on paper and never panned out, really.


Well, actually NAC ONLY in specific cases (i.e. - acetominophen toxicity) has truly been backed. Recall, however, the metabolism of these hormones in no way mimics acetominophen.

[dinoiii]

Incidently,

the poll at the top references if you think there is a chance you can sacrifice some gains, NOT do you think it is worth it to use protectants. It appears that people may be voting NO, yet I am not sure if there statements back that up.

[Haus]

Well it seems to me that only users with liver disease or a history of elevated liver enzymes need to be worried.

My personal experience with methyls has been impressive. Of course, I'm a young healthy male with no health conditions.

There really has been a “liver scare” with these methyl products. It’s funny to read manufacturers admit that they are not quit sure how their product should be dosed. When they first come out, the consensus was to take as little as possible. Then it progressed to heaver use. Now methyl cycles. Pushing the envelope on liver toxicity is progressing rapidly.

Very thorough dinoiii.

[HillbillyRock]

I would like to add a question to this if I may.So if it isn't needed for your cycle do you recommend it for PCT?And what is recommended for PCT?

[HillbillyRock]

max von - read post on PCT and cycle length about estrogenic conversions....consider adequate TAPERS as MANDATORY for endocrine protection.


Also what do you mean about Tapers?and please tell about endocrine.

[llllern]

i didnt see your vote dinoiii hee hee hee . no biggy i know your real busy .

[JrBirdMan]

I'm curious to here the same discussion with creatine supplementation while on cycle?

Also dino, as far as kidney protectants, what do you recommend?

[llllern]

so am I . dinoiii do you recommend waiting for your supps to digest before you take your liver support or take it with your supps???

[HillbillyRock]

I think Saw Pelmetto is the norm for your kidneys.

[Voodoo]

while i see what youre coming through with here dinoiii... given my previous years namely 18-23 1/2 ish.... ill take the milk thistle, just out of guilt of what ive done to my liver. :(
besides, i gained 24lbs on bold and m1,4add wet and 22lbs total. (which greatly surpassed what YOU said was possible;) )

of course this raises interesting questions - you worry about glutathione levels during cycle affecting your overall outcome - and later on after cycle, but then cram tons down your throat during pct... wouldn't the glutathione levels stay high after pct? or am i just stupid and totally not understanding the concept here.

[dinoiii]

Oh my goodness, you guys have resurrected such an old thread. I was merely trying to suggest things when I wrote that for hypothetical talk as the forum was very small at that time.

Rapid-Fire comments to many of the points I recall suggested:
I will reacquaint myself with what had been said at a later point, but ... for the reader - yes, dinoiii DOES employ the use of liver-protecting agents during any C17 alkylated cycles. This was PURELY hypothetical. I do NOT take them at the same time as my PH/PS/AAS doses, however.

There are some considerations about various anabolic molecules and liver vs. kidney excretion - if a thread has yet to be offered, we can do this. I still tend to take creatine year round, however. But - it should be noted that I may be on less actual cycles than some of you guys, which I am unaware of how to comment on that at this time, because new molecules are being suggested on what seems a daily basis these days.

Kidney protectants...make no mistake, I do NOT think such a thing should be employed on cycle. I was going to offer up some suggestions, but I think many people consider way too much to begin with sometimes and I do not see at the present a lot of benefit.

Saw Palmetto is usually promoted for Prostate Health vs. Kidney.

I think Haus gave a good quote in his reply.


I hope I have commented on all of the pertinents.

D_

[angelo212]

I think Saw Pelmetto is the norm for your kidneys.

Saw Palmetto is used for prostate. We went thru this once before.

[solomon1979]

Saw Palmetto is used for prostate.

It also helps with DHT conversion.

[txcrusher]

so what is good for the kindeys? and reading dinoiii's first page on milk thistle im wondering would the alpha lipoic acid be better.

[pbk]

WOW! This IS digging up old bones. I remember this thread when it first came out. I am really glad to see it resurrected though. This is a good discussion to bring back up again.

[Voodoo]

I would love a quality discussion on the concurrent administration of liver "protectants" while using a methylated prohormone.

Personally, I think it DEFEATS the purpose. What I mean is in restoration of proper glutathione levels, you may be sabatoging gains.

Dino, I'm proving you wrong with my current cycle. Im gaining 4lbs a week on average - faster than Ive ever gained on any ph, and I leaned out. How am I disproving the theory? Double dosing (6 caps a day) now foods liver detox/regenerator the entire cycle.

[txcrusher]

did i miss something. so what is a good kidney supplement.

[gbison]

Well for those who can't decide whether or not to use the liver protectants on cycle why not just split it 50/50. Go half the cycle without the protectants and finish with them or vice versa. Seem like you would still be protecting yourself somewhat and minimize any gain loss that could take place if you had used the protectants the whole cycle......of course I'm just simple minded and thought I would get my 2cents in....LOL:rolleyes:

[RisingAgainst]

Well for those who can't decide whether or not to use the liver protectants on cycle why not just split it 50/50. Go half the cycle without the protectants and finish with them or vice versa. Seem like you would still be protecting yourself somewhat and minimize any gain loss that could take place if you had used the protectants the whole cycle......of course I'm just simple minded and thought I would get my 2cents in....LOL:rolleyes:

I wouldnt risk my liver health on it man. My liver... is my liver, I only got the one, and I doubt I could get another, especially if the reason for the transplant was because I was to dumb to protect it when I used ph's. lol

[gbison]

I hear ya bro.......;)

[abesanity]

i too would like to hear a similar discussion about creatine products while on a methylated product.

[jlegg21]

I would also like to read what others have to say on Creatine/Methylated PHs. I take them together, sometimes. I take Creatine 12 weeks on and four weeks off, so sometimes I am taking both and sometimes I'm not. I think the original point was that why not worry about the kidneys and what Creatine/Metyl PH could possibly do to them. I personally supplement with cran nearly year round(I say nearly because I don't always replace the cran as soon as I run out.), and while Cran may not be sufficient, it is better than nothing.

[Voodoo]

Dinoiii, Im jacking your thread.

Ok, so everyone says (including me) don't run double methyls at the same time. However, I've been thinking about it, and some AAS combos are better simultaneously, so heres what I'm thinking.

Lets say one pill of a Superdrol clone is 10mg - were going to say that has a value of 1. Phera - same deal 1 pill = 1.

Now most of the major sides occur when you hit that 2-3 value of methyls. Aka, superdrol 20-30mg..

What if, you ran 10mg SD and 10mg of phera? You'd only be ingesting the methyl value of 2 - which would be the same number of methyls you ingest on 20mg sd.

See where I'm going here? A 4 week, low dosed, double methyl cycle. You wouldn't really be able to go over what I discussed, maybe for those of us that don't respond to SD (hi RA!) we might be able to go as high as 20mg of superdrol and 10mg of phera but that would be the limit, due to the fact youre approaching the
http://www.podshow.com/images/shows/869/shows/small/dangerzone.jpg
and nobody wants to crash and burn here.

Now, Dinoiii, your thoughts please? ;)

[JrBirdMan]

Dinoiii, Im jacking your thread.

Ok, so everyone says (including me) don't run double methyls at the same time. However, I've been thinking about it, and some AAS combos are better simultaneously, so heres what I'm thinking.

Lets say one pill of a Superdrol clone is 10mg - were going to say that has a value of 1. Phera - same deal 1 pill = 1.

Now most of the major sides occur when you hit that 2-3 value of methyls. Aka, superdrol 20-30mg..

What if, you ran 10mg SD and 10mg of phera? You'd only be ingesting the methyl value of 2 - which would be the same number of methyls you ingest on 20mg sd.

See where I'm going here? A 4 week, low dosed, double methyl cycle. You wouldn't really be able to go over what I discussed, maybe for those of us that don't respond to SD (hi RA!) we might be able to go as high as 20mg of superdrol and 10mg of phera but that would be the limit, due to the fact youre approaching the
http://www.podshow.com/images/shows/869/shows/small/dangerzone.jpg
and nobody wants to crash and burn here.

Now, Dinoiii, your thoughts please? ;)


Voodoo, you were reading my mind. Here's what I was thinking, running a SD @ 10mgs due to a higher level of liver toxicity and it being already active. when you compare it to a m1,4add that can be dosed at 4-6 pills a day for a approx. 10mgs D-bol, and it being wet I think the synergy would be huge. the m1,4add has to convert via enzymes and stuff, but you'd get the dry SD with the wet m1,4add (only 3 pills a day) and have what I would think to be approximately the same liver values (with liver aids) that you would with 20mgs of SD alone. I've been kicking this idea around for a while. Keep me posted.

[Voodoo]

see this is the only place i can actually ask this question cause everywhere else i dont have the "post authority" so therefore im regarded a newb, and then told double methyls will destroy my liver and im an idiot...

[JrBirdMan]

a younger more stupid version of me ran LG M1P with LG masterdrol @ 3 pills a day of each!:eek: no liver protectants on cycle or PCT. I didn't have blood work done, but didn't have any noticable sides, not even back pumps due to the progestin bloat. I would NOT recommend it but I didn't know better at the time. but I think this topic has potential.

[dinoiii]

I'm sorry, did I ever say "don't run two methyls at a time?"

In fact, I think I have posted quite the contrary especially when it comes to stacking class IIs and class Is to avoid sides. Most people don't even know what the hell that means though and would likely even call me an idiot on another board.

hehe - no matter.

Please Note: what I have said above does NOT nor should it to you read that dinoiii supports said cycles discussed above (SD + PP).


JrBirdMan - M1P is a rather weak one to begin...I wouldn't have anticipated many sides from this.

"Back pumps" due to "progestin bloat" - who the hell is spreadin' that trash?

Please don't buy into internet guru's comments. The above statement is one of said statements.



D_

[Voodoo]

alright so now that i have some backing, to some small degree ;)

class system for those who care to know
Class I - Binding to the androgen receptor
Class II - Loosely uses androgen receptor, typically works through other means though
Class III - No affinity for androgen receptor?

You'll have to excuse my lack of knowledge regarding class III's, I typically stack 1+2's.

Where I was going with this was in class 1 and class 2 uses, something like my next stack Trenadrol (class 1) and M1,4ADD (class 2) though trenadrol isn't methyl, thats what I was going for. I am however debating running Revolt with this stack, which could be a lot of fun.

Back on track,

So Dinoiii, given DA's arsenal, what would you call out at a class 3 to match up with the few class 1's they have, so far Im only finding Tren products as class 1. Halo is a class 2, SD is a class 2, Phera is dhea..

[dinoiii]

alright so now that i have some backing, to some small degree ;)

class system for those who care to know
Class I - Binding to the androgen receptor
Class II - Loosely uses androgen receptor, typically works through other means though
Class III - No affinity for androgen receptor?

You'll have to excuse my lack of knowledge regarding class III's, I typically stack 1+2's.

Where I was going with this was in class 1 and class 2 uses, something like my next stack Trenadrol (class 1) and M1,4ADD (class 2) though trenadrol isn't methyl, thats what I was going for. I am however debating running Revolt with this stack, which could be a lot of fun.

Back on track,

So Dinoiii, given DA's arsenal, what would you call out at a class 3 to match up with the few class 1's they have, so far Im only finding Tren products as class 1. Halo is a class 2, SD is a class 2, Phera is dhea..

Good Looking out, I typed an extra "I" in that previous post Voo...didn't mean III, meant II. Have since edited it with rationale. I wrote about this whole thing in someone's SD post some time ago on this forum I believe (not sure if that's where you read about it or if you have an alternative source as they are sparse). Sorry bout that, but good catch.

lol - one can say there is an obvious reason to why you had no knowledge of II(I)'s - dinoiii done made 'em up. Doh!!!


D_

[JrBirdMan]

"Back pumps" due to "progestin bloat" - who the hell is spreadin' that trash?

out of left field guess on my part.

dino or voo-
can someone list some phs and their class for me, this is all new material for me.:)

[Voodoo]

yeah sure ill do my best here. ill be using illegal substances followed by legal counterparts you can pick up here at DA

Class I - binding to AR
Trenbolone (Trenadrol, Trenaplex, Finigenx Magnum)
Testosterone (M1T converting products, - Methyl Xt, Methyl Mass)
Boldenone (Iforce Bold)

Class II - loosely binding to AR
Masteron (Superdrol)
Dianabol (M1,4ADD)
Halotestin (Halodrol - i think)


Things Im not sure on
Phera - ill be honest, im still having a hard time finding the chemical this based off of.
Winstrol (Winztrol) - binds to the progesterone receptor which leads me to believe its a class I but im not sure.
Progesterone (revolt, propadrol) - i cant find anything on progesterone based steroids and what class they are, I would assume they're class II though based on binding to a progesterone receptor instead of AR.
The two AMS products in the prohormones section look more like test boosters than anything else to me.


Dino, feel free to fix what I said as needed. Im doing my best under "self study" without medical degrees. I'm glad there isn't a Class III I feel much better, I was really doubting myself there. Go figure for a guy with as many I's in his name as you do that you would typo that one..;)

GAH! Last time Im going to preach this!!!
Back pumps are due to kidney swelling from the increase in blood from AAS/PH use! Taurine allows the cells to expand a little more cause they handle water better. I would prefer that people out there just drink a ton of water and take a small dose of taurine rather than down large doses of it to counter pumps.

[pbk]

Back in the day...several years ago before the "ban", folks were using stacks of MOHN + MDien, M1T + MDien ... as well as M1T + MOHN was a very popular stack.

So, M1T is a class I. I do not know what class MOHN and MDien are. Interestly, if stacking a class I and II...then you have M1T + SD. M1T being more wet and androgenic compared to SD being dry and less andro....but, how many would want to risk the sides and liver effects of stacking those two? Yet...I have wondered many a time, like you, what is the difference in doing 10mg of M1T + 10mg of SD as vs doing 20mg of one or the other. And many guys said they did 30mg of SD, as did some guys with M1T. Seems like 10mg of each stacked would be no worse, if as bad, as 30 mg of SD.

Not saying to do any of that....just wondering. I never heard of anyone complaining about the sides of M1T + MOHN, etc., any more so than the standard reported sides of M1T as a stand alone.

[dinoiii]

yeah sure ill do my best here. ill be using illegal substances followed by legal counterparts you can pick up here at DA

Class I - binding to AR
Trenbolone (Trenadrol, Trenaplex, Finigenx Magnum)
Testosterone (M1T converting products, - Methyl Xt, Methyl Mass)
Boldenone (Iforce Bold)

Class II - loosely binding to AR
Masteron (Superdrol)
Dianabol (M1,4ADD)
Halotestin (Halodrol - i think)


Things Im not sure on
Phera - ill be honest, im still having a hard time finding the chemical this based off of.
Winstrol (Winztrol) - binds to the progesterone receptor which leads me to believe its a class I but im not sure.
Progesterone (revolt, propadrol) - i cant find anything on progesterone based steroids and what class they are, I would assume they're class II though based on binding to a progesterone receptor instead of AR.
The two AMS products in the prohormones section look more like test boosters than anything else to me.


Dino, feel free to fix what I said as needed. Im doing my best under "self study" without medical degrees. I'm glad there isn't a Class III I feel much better, I was really doubting myself there. Go figure for a guy with as many I's in his name as you do that you would typo that one..;)

GAH! Last time Im going to preach this!!!
Back pumps are due to kidney swelling from the increase in blood from AAS/PH use! Taurine allows the cells to expand a little more cause they handle water better. I would prefer that people out there just drink a ton of water and take a small dose of taurine rather than down large doses of it to counter pumps.



Well -- for the most part you got the divisions correct anyway voo. Let's make a couple corrections for completion's sake, shall we?

[1] MASTERON does NOT equal SD...SD is METHASTERON. You're probably thinkin' big deal Dana - why the heck would I care about a simple 17-a methyl addition (or maybe you're not, but it makes my post less dramatic so just go with me Voo ;) )? When you 17-alpha alkylate something, you change the inherent activity of the parent molecule and its effects can be precipitously different. For those curious and b/c SD is so widely acclaimed, this is likely best classified DHT derivative with highly debated, yet unsettled progestinic activity (which presumably can give us actual Class I vs. Class II placement of other DHT derivatives on the market currently at least theoretically...the A:A ratio has not been fully developed, but the assumption used is if Masteron is 3:1, then Methasteron is 20:1 - maybe I heard this A:A part from Bill Llewelyn, I don't recall guys - I read so much crap on a daily basis). Now with it's essential 5-alpha reduction, one could easily assume the progestinal activity is negligible, but all oral agents do possess some level of progestin activity so to suggest that it is non-progestinic is also incorrect, albeit perhaps mild.

[2] Now, progestinic activity also dictates how best to stack and avoid sides - so, its not just as easy as saying Class I + Class II = happy man! ;) Also if you think about it Winstrol and Dianabol are both class IIs and they stack ok - so let's not make it so cut and dry.

[3] Whoa! Halodrol DOES NOT equal Halotestin - despite its similar nomenclature. Fluoxymesterone is Halotestin, Haldrol really is its own thing, a steroid: Oral Turinabol. I'll still give you class II on that one though.

[4] I won't talk down about molecules per se here, but there are like 5 or 6 that are true JUNK (some of which you listed). I am not planning on bad mouthing here, just saying - they were and have been junk.

[5] Phera is a trick but probably best classified as desoxymethyltestosterone, a derivative of test...wouldn't classify it as DHEA, but very wet and some serious high androgenic properties.

[6] For a very descriptive breakdown of the pathophysiology behind the "back pump" - please see science section on taurine and read my post on the second page or so...it gets a bit off topic and I may have to repost it down the line.


Hope this helps the scenario a bit.


btw pbk: MOHN = Class I, MDien = Class II (but this is a tougher fit)...MDien + M1T -or- MDien + MOHN were the best stacks in this subsector - what we will call 2nd generation PH/PS/DeS.


D_

[dinoiii]

Oh yeah, here is that Taurine post I did from the science forum for those interested without all the other "stuff" that went on in that thread (lol):

http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=65749&postcount=12


D_

[JrBirdMan]

[2] Now, progestinic activity also dictates how best to stack and avoid sides - so, its not just as easy as saying Class I + Class II = happy man! Also if you think about it Winstrol and Dianabol are both class IIs and they stack ok - so let's not make it so cut and dry.

could you explain this a little more. Winstrol and D-bol are same class and stack well together. So are you best off with 2 from the same class? what should I be looking for when I'm putting together future stacks?

as far as the classification goes, how does it earn the class? is it based on conversion or already active part? Is the class something you can tell by looking at the nomeclature?

[Voodoo]

[2] Now, progestinic activity also dictates how best to stack and avoid sides - so, its not just as easy as saying Class I + Class II = happy man! ;) Also if you think about it Winstrol and Dianabol are both class IIs and they stack ok - so let's not make it so cut and dry.

[3] Whoa! Halodrol DOES NOT equal Halotestin - despite its similar nomenclature. Fluoxymesterone is Halotestin, Haldrol really is its own thing, a steroid: Oral Turinabol. I'll still give you class II on that one though.

[5] Phera is a trick but probably best classified as desoxymethyltestosterone, a derivative of test...wouldn't classify it as DHEA, but very wet and some serious high androgenic properties.


2) more details, less vocab words. ;) though I have seen that stacking 1 and 2's as a general rule has yielded some pretty decent gains. especially on an ecto..

3) I knew I was going to get ****ed for that one! I thought it might be turinabol, but I figured that would make too much sense with juggernauts product so I went with what Halo would have named it off of...

4) Phera is a trick, theres nothing online about it anywhere other than "buy this version of it here"

[angelo212]

if this were the case, why are some compaines putting milk thistle in the products?




If you notice the milk thistle is at such low doses it will do nothing.

[angelo212]

I think Saw Pelmetto is the norm for your kidneys.


For your prostate. We went thru this once before.

[pbk]

.....MDien + M1T -or- MDien + MOHN were the best stacks in this subsector - what we will call 2nd generation PH/PS/DeS.D_

Ahhhhh....sighhhhh......the good ole days! Gone, thanks to our self serving congressmen.

[ShiftyCapone]

See, I feel that they are beneficial to your liver in any case. My liver wasn't quite up to par because of drinking-related issues. I supplemented with standardized milk thistle for several months, while being administered blood work. My liver enzymes decreased throughout that period. After about 4 months in the norm, I took my first PH cycle monitored by bloodwork. One of my liver enzymes rose slightly out of the normal range but returned to normal about a month after PCT.

I don't know, maybe all of that happened naturally. Or maybe it was because I was supplementing for liver health. I can't answer that exactly because I haven't done a "control" run. And to be honest, I never will. I wouldn't mess up my body just to test if they work. But something is working and I'm going to keep it all up to keep my body healthy....

[Voodoo]

Ok so then Dana, now that we've established the basics, I put it to you; do you see any problem with running a double methyl simultaneously for a more experienced user? Lower dosages of course. Something like Methyl XT and Halodrol together for 4 weeks? Right now, its looking pretty solid to me..

I understand this is one of those, "i dont want to say it and have someone overdo it and mess themselves up topics"

[jw25558]

Ok so then Dana, now that we've established the basics, I put it to you; do you see any problem with running a double methyl simultaneously for a more experienced user? Lower dosages of course. Something like Methyl XT and Halodrol together for 4 weeks? Right now, its looking pretty solid to me..

I understand this is one of those, "i dont want to say it and have someone overdo it and mess themselves up topics"

Voo, I think you're on o something there. Or even running a bridged cycle something like this:

wk. 1 methyl xt 20mg
wk. 2 methyl xt 20mg
wk. 3 methyl xt 10mg, Halo 50mg
wk. 4 Halo 50mg, Trenadrol 60mg
wk. 5 Halo 50mg, Trenadrol 60mg
wk. 6 Halo 50mg, Trenadrol 60mg

The XT would give the quick strength and weight gain and the halo and tren would keep the mass coming while leaning you out. Just a thought. Dont anybody go and try this yet;)

[Voodoo]

im not talking about bridging. im talking about a cycle that would look like

Week 1:
Phera 15mg
M1,4ADD 30mg
Trenadrol 30mg

Weeks 2-4:
Phera 15mg (possibly moving up to 30mg)
M1,4ADD 60mg
Trenadrol 60mg

double methyl, same time. low dose.

[jw25558]

I see what you are saying but I think you would get better results from a longer bridged cycle opposed to a short double methyl cycle. What I find ideal is running a semi-wet bulker followed by something to lean/dry you out by the time the cycle is over. The tren definitely kick starts a cycle well and though I have never used it, I think methyl xt would be good to start a cycle with as well.

[Voodoo]

bump for dinoiii who still hasnt responded to this... ;)

[dinoiii]

If you notice the milk thistle is at such low doses it will do nothing.

Yes, but it is pretty to see more ingredients. More enticing to those who don't know better to research them. Unfortunately, they think they are both covered and the like and this is not remotely the case and oftentimes works as a deterrant (hence the rationale for starting this thread way back eons ago) to true efficacy.


could you explain this a little more. Winstrol and D-bol are same class and stack well together. So are you best off with 2 from the same class? what should I be looking for when I'm putting together future stacks?

Yes, unfortunately we don't have a good explanation for their synergy actually...they are just one of those "exceptions to the rule" kind of thing and a well-established increased efficacy is seen when combining the two for many rather than using either in stand-alone fashion.

You are normally better off with one from Class I + one from Class II.


As far as the classification goes, how does it earn the class? is it based on conversion or already active part? Is the class something you can tell by looking at the nomeclature?

Classification as I have described on here for years (don't worry, I expect no one to go back and have read all 5,000+ of my posts, especially newer members) is decided upon based on affinity for the androgen receptor. Higher affinity gets a Class I connotation, Class II's act through some other mechanism (i.e. - anti-catabolic, et al)...

Not really something you can tell by looking at slang (street) nomenclature nor names created in attempt to divert attention from the actual molecule (i.e. - marketing)...however, it is deducible or at the very least an educated guesstimate can come from the parent molecule.


2) more details, less vocab words. ;) though I have seen that stacking 1 and 2's as a general rule has yielded some pretty decent gains. especially on an ecto..

Smart A*s!


4) Phera is a trick, theres nothing online about it anywhere other than "buy this version of it here"

Well, there is stuff off-line, but it isn't the greatest or easy to make estimates about either. We know a lot more now than we did when this compound was released. Phera and SD were my LEAST TWO FAVORITE PH releases outside of some of the junk in a bottle that seconded as weak prgestins/phermones.


Ahhhhh....sighhhhh......the good ole days! Gone, thanks to our self serving congressmen.

Completely agreed pbk...completely agreed. Ever seen a well-built congressman though...they are simply covering for their own inadequacies. They think that bans will ever make it "better." As history has shown...it ONLY MAKES IT FAR WORSE (evolution of black markets, vet alternatives, et al).



D_

[Voodoo]

Smart A*s!
D_

you know it!

[dinoiii]

Ok so then Dana, now that we've established the basics, I put it to you; do you see any problem with running a double methyl simultaneously for a more experienced user? Lower dosages of course. Something like Methyl XT and Halodrol together for 4 weeks? Right now, its looking pretty solid to me..

I understand this is one of those, "I dont want to say it and have someone overdo it and mess themselves up topics"

Should someone tell voo my response looks like this:

I dont want to say it and have someone overdo it and mess themselves up topics.

In the grand scheme though for what is currently on the market, I think that methyls are all that really hold much of the promise for oral administration. We can talk this and that about the soon-to-be-released subset and those of yesteryear,....but you really had to dose non-methyls in the statosphere to get good result.


im not talking about bridging. im talking about a cycle that would look like

Week 1:
Phera 15mg
M1,4ADD 30mg
Trenadrol 30mg

Weeks 2-4:
Phera 15mg (possibly moving up to 30mg)
M1,4ADD 60mg
Trenadrol 60mg

double methyl, same time. low dose.

Like I said though...phera is out there and I already defined its most close match. Its interesting, but I am unsure I like Phera and Tren run together personally. Tren isn't so side-effect free despite its dubbing as a non-methyl and it actually theoretically isn't very legal at all if we get down to the heart and soul of the compound, but I am still holding back on going there.


I see what you are saying but I think you would get better results from a longer bridged cycle opposed to a short double methyl cycle. What I find ideal is running a semi-wet bulker followed by something to lean/dry you out by the time the cycle is over. The tren definitely kick starts a cycle well and though I have never used it, I think methyl xt would be good to start a cycle with as well.

I think you are both right to a degree. Longer cycles produce better results, though the term "bridge" has been defined differently by different parties and has not really shown greater efficacy to the same compounds run the entire duration.

As for the Methyl XT and Tren, they are simply best considered "base" compounds.

Overall, this is MUCH more in-depth than I really wanted to get.

Anything that dinoiii has posted over the course of this thread is completely for informational purposes only.


D_

[dinoiii]

you know it!

Well, we'll see how the experience is with you on the phone this week - that appears it will be a treat. ;)


D_

[Voodoo]

just an update, methylboldenone and halo (oral turin) in conjunction with methoxy tren all at some decently high dosings, not seeing any ill effects at all... im also dosing 400mg pills of SAMe twice daily... is there a limit to amount of same that should be ingested daily?

[dinoiii]

Highest dosed SAMe trials in the literature I am aware of used 1200mg actually.

There is one thing still...I am curious as to whether there is increased efficacy by what you are doing or a point (with perhaps less) that you would achieve similar gains is all. Not "seeing" side effect on the outside doesn't make you immune. ;)

D_

[The Grim Repper]

I always thought that people worrying about the liver (pretty much like Jason keeps coming back) vs. the 'neys was a bit strange. My two cents: I've done PH/PS with and without Liver help and def. noticed a limit in gains when on LP.

grim

[Voodoo]

Highest dosed SAMe trials in the literature I am aware of used 1200mg actually.

There is one thing still...I am curious as to whether there is increased efficacy by what you are doing or a point (with perhaps less) that you would achieve similar gains is all. Not "seeing" side effect on the outside doesn't make you immune. ;)

D_


yeah unfortunately i dont have the ability to do bloodwork morning noon and night too tell ya what my liver values are on and off and so on... and while yes, i agree that not showing signs doesnt mean youre not messin up the liver, i still think overall health and listening to ones own body during the more rediculous cycles is key, and all my body is saying is go for broke I can take it...;)
in regaurds to liver protection on cycle and it limiting gains, theroetically yes it could limit gains, but id rather be safe than sorry and make up for it next cycle. tiiiiiiiiiimmmmeeee is on my siiiiiiiiiiiiiddddddeeee.....

also, ive been drinking 20 ounces of grapefuit juice daily to see if it has any effect on sides/potency/gains. so far, nothing.

[Jswoll]

In fact, I think I have posted quite the contrary especially when it comes to stacking class IIs and class Is to avoid sides. Most people don't even know what the hell that means though and would likely even call me an idiot on another board.
D_
I know, I was talking about the classes here before I left, but no one questioned it...or would talk about it. Was I the first to bring this to the board...that would be really cool, or can you predate me D_?

Winstrol and D-bol are same class and stack well together.
Different non-AR mediated means...this can be done with SOME class II, wini is a odd ball sorta.

[dinoiii]

also, ive been drinking 20 ounces of grapefuit juice daily to see if it has any effect on sides/potency/gains. so far, nothing.

Hepatic CYP3A4 activity seems to be unaffected by grapefruit juice when consumed in usual volumes, so 20 ounces will likely have minimal effect - if any. This may reflect poor absorption of the active ingredients across the intestinal wall, dilution of the active ingredients in portal blood to concentrations below their effective inhibitory concentrations, and/or to avid binding of the active ingredients to plasma proteins in portal blood.

Another interesting point is that the CYP3A4 inhibition happens in a substrate-independent nature, implying that additional substrate like the cycle you have proposed too will likely mean little.

So, why is it companies like to add DHB and the like again? ;)



D_

[dinoiii]

I know, I was talking about the classes here before I left, but no one questioned it...or would talk about it. Was I the first to bring this to the board...that would be really cool, or can you predate me D_?

I have no idea when you were talking about it...give me a date and I will see if I pre-date you on this board...lol. I have been talking about this concept overall for years...I was MUCH more candid with steroid discussions back in the days of the old Syntrax board...but there aren't too many left from those days - I run into more of the older guys over at the "larger bb site" from time to time that recall my infamous battles with PA and co. A shame what happened in the scandalous days that were Derek Cornelius. Oh, and then medical school happened. ;)


Different non-AR mediated means...this can be done with SOME class II, wini is a odd ball sorta.

Different means could only be speculated but never really shown. It really has been thus far a suggested paradox.




D_

[Jswoll]

Different means could only be speculated but never really shown. It really has been thus far a suggested paradox.
D_
I know but that's the simplest explanation, plus can you prove the contrary? That it is through AR means? It is th best assumption, no?

[dinoiii]

I know but that's the simplest explanation, plus can you prove the contrary? That it is through AR means? It is th best assumption, no?

That's actually the problem within the confides of a paradox, no?

Who the hell can "prove" either side, but its not the sides based on your side suggestion. Of course, there could be some alternative control non-AR mediated...it's the AR-affinity that dictates the Class designation (both of which are Class II's).

So, we can say that there appears to be little affinity for the AR...what we cannot really discern is whether or not the two compounds' alternative effect mechanisms (as we assume there is low affinity for the AR, the contrary) that the alternate can be something like the anti-catabolic alternative oftentimes suggested.


D_

[Jswoll]

So, we can say that there appears to be little affinity for the AR...what we cannot really discern is whether or not the two compounds' alternative effect mechanisms (as we assume there is low affinity for the AR, the contrary) that the alternate can be something like the anti-catabolic alternative oftentimes suggested.

D_

True you cannot prove what mechanism it is but to be labeled "class II" (thus the lack of affinity to AR) you still can say that 2 classII have different mechanisms (multiple ones most likely and overlapping ones) because if they acted on the same receptor then they would behave identically only differing potencies--so could not the logical deduction be that they act through different Non-AR means (at least to an extent or "different" in the since some same mechs. different ratios)?

[Voodoo]

Hepatic CYP3A4 activity seems to be unaffected by grapefruit juice when consumed in usual volumes, so 20 ounces will likely have minimal effect - if any. This may reflect poor absorption of the active ingredients across the intestinal wall, dilution of the active ingredients in portal blood to concentrations below their effective inhibitory concentrations, and/or to avid binding of the active ingredients to plasma proteins in portal blood.

Another interesting point is that the CYP3A4 inhibition happens in a substrate-independent nature, implying that additional substrate like the cycle you have proposed too will likely mean little.

So, why is it companies like to add DHB and the like again? ;)

D_


for those following along he said: nix the grapefruit juice.

to which i say, but its soooo tasty though....

[dinoiii]

True you cannot prove what mechanism it is but to be labeled "class II" (thus the lack of affinity to AR) you still can say that 2 classII have different mechanisms (multiple ones most likely and overlapping ones) because if they acted on the same receptor then they would behave identically only differing potencies--so could not the logical deduction be that they act through different Non-AR means (at least to an extent or "different" in the since some same mechs. different ratios)?


That's just it (the paradox that is...) and what I was getting at, but if you re-read your post, you sugggested AR (I was replying to the quote I pulled).

Basically - We have no idea and all our assumptions have shown them to act similarly overall, so to date...if this is the case, anything that would provide additional efficacy is likely something that has thus far not been identified.



D_

[dinoiii]

for those following along he said: nix the grapefruit juice.

to which i say, but its soooo tasty though....

Smart Ass (that's #2 in this thread)! :D



D_

[Voodoo]

so heres a legit question to ask, what foods IMPROVE absorbption? honestly, its either that or Im thinking about dosing tren to 120mg a day and then following suit with the EQ-T2 to 4 pills (130mg methylboldenone / 80mg halo clone)

hell i dont even have pumps, im doing deadlifts and good mornings on this cycle...

[Jswoll]

That's just it (the paradox that is...)...

Basically - We have no idea and all our assumptions have shown them to act similarly overall, so to date...if this is the case, anything that would provide additional efficacy is likely something that has thus far not been identified.

D_

So (low affinity for AR + Anabolic characteristics ("additional efficacy") or seemingly so) = paradox?

Even so to say one "paradox"/compound's mech. is equal to another "paradox" is making an assumption of knowledge into the paradox.

My original point was d-bol and wini work together well because of a variance in mech.---observation, not fact or assumption of knowledge of the paradox!

[Voodoo]

So (low affinity for AR + Anabolic characteristics ("additional efficacy") or seemingly so) = paradox?

Even so to say one "paradox"/compound's mech. is equal to another "paradox" is making an assumption of knowledge into the paradox.

My original point was d-bol and wini work together well because of a variance in mech.---observation, not fact or assumption of knowledge of the paradox!

this is the logic behind many of my "kitchen sink" cycles, class one, class two, and then some class ones that also have weird side effects like boldenone increasing red blood cell count for appetite, and endurance as well as nutirent delivery purposes... granted, my liver hates me, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do...

[kplayon]

I figured I would bump this. It was an excellent read for me :)

[neonhypoxia]

I think this is a great topic, but it seems to have become side tracked some. First off I think if you are that concerned about your liver, maybe you shouldn't be taking anything oral. I'de also like to point out that while the methyls might be stronger hepatoxins, nonmethyls aren't great for your liver either. I think many people don't understand that most of what's used for PCT are hepatoxic too. So don't think just because you're using a nonmethyl you are in the clear.

Also keep in mind that just because you feel okay, and you're blood test came back fine; it doesn't mean your liver is fine. The levels don't start getting out of normal as soon as damage begins to occur. It has to be enough that your liver has started working hard to compensate.

As for liver protectorants, taking them staggered out from the PH or PTC dose is a good idea if you are taking them on cycle or post. Part of the product will still ended being broken down. It might have made it thru the first liver pass, but it will be back again. Its not like your blood just goes thru the liver once. Personally I take R-ALA the whole time, but for other reasons than its hepaprotection. It is good at protecting your liver though. I'm not completely sure about this, but I don't think R-ALA will interfer with the metabolism of PHes. SAMe however will. Its a great protectorant, but it definetly make PHes break down faster. I use in, but only after cycle and post. NAC and milk thistle are pretty useless for PHes, don't even bother with them.

The liver can take a fair amount of damage and still completely repair itself; just as long as there isn't too much scar tissue or damage to the blood vessels. I'm much more worried about my kidneys. I would suggest not using creatine at all while on cycle or in post on a methyl or nonmetylated. Always be sure to get enough water too.

As for the class II issue; it really just means that they don't seem to work on the ARs. They just do something else, or atleast it looks that way. So there is more than one was a class II could be working. So maybe some of them do work by other methods. No one really knows at this point. I think that if two of them stack well, there is a good chance they are doing something different. Or atleast not everything they do overlaps.